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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Just watched first part of zacuto shootout....

Jason Von Drayco

Jason Von Drayco

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Just watched first part of zacuto shootout, and after seeing all the cameras back to back on a 2k projector, wow. Really showed how far the mid range cameras have come. Even the GH2 was not too bad after post.

What was shocking was how bad the post production made some cameras look and other better. From having seen the work done on all the cameras, the alexa and F3 are the most pleasing to me after post, but the epic... the epic was fucking awful like really really bad post/grade. It was average in terms of the basic grade, not really standing out, but the 'master cine grade to make the camera as good as possible' was boarder line film student. I think everyone there was shocked at how bad it looked. I know the epic can look fantastic, but if i was naive and took one test as the 'be all and end all' of cameras as people seem to, i would not want to buy an epic, i would want a F3 or alexa or the cine that made the gh2 look good.

Also, the test is retarded, many of the cines have pushed the grades to get the most dynamic range, regardless of how shit it looks even though they stated at the start, 'to get the most pleasing image'. Half ignored horrible color and such to get the sky's in exposure etc.

The cameras - post grade - to me, ranked, alexa, f3, gh2, f65, c300, fs100, 7d, epic. iphone

I love epic, but i can see from a producers perspective why they take the alexa.

Also if you watch this, bring headphones and an ipod, the music during is horrific, and credits seem like the avengers climax.....

seeing this is such a professional test, the quality of the entire production doesn't say much. It just feels tacky.

Also if you go to a screening, be prepare for tech-bots to constantly rattle out things such as "s-Log, 4:2:0, 4:4:4 23.98, log-c 25mbit/s hacked 35 megawhattss five bits 40k" and go round in circles til the point you need to walk out. Specs are for paper, if you dont know them, look em up, nearly everyone has a phone with net these days.

I suggest the Zacuto instead of having a 'Great camera shootout' have a 'Great tech-spec shootout' in which they put people who cannot talk about anything but specs in a room with some nail ridden 4x2's. That would be more entertaining.

Also, if red keeps talking about bring a knife to a gun fight, in this test, they bought a machine gun operated by a generic James bond villain. They hit nothing.
 
Well, it seems to illustrate what most reasonable people think, ie it's not about the camera and its specs, but more about the people behind it. As a producer, I would rather hire a good dop with a GH2 than a bad one with an Epic. Sure, it's even better to have a good dop with an Epic, but dreams are only for the night ;-)

Kristin
 
The Producers Guild along with the ASC did a test recently and it should be ready to view around the middle of June. I am more curious about that test...

In the end we should all shoot our own tests, much like we did with film stocks and as we still do with lenses.
 
I do not understand, how do they do these tests.
I think there is an underlying problem with those who manage the images.
The problem and then the people who speak ill of the Red Epic, just looking at theShootout.
But it is possible that there is no testing done as you have competent people who can manage the video streams correctly for each camera.
I know for a fact that this camera is fantastic, it is also true that it took me a long timebefore you use it up, but now I would not turn back ever again of Arri Alexa, I have had for 1 year here at the television studio.
The raw is a beautiful and ugly beast, it takes little to spoil everything, but when youknow how to use no more limits to the 'imagination.

I'll watch 'this test to see what the fuck they did.

 
Ryan Walters no longer has a user account here apparently. Interesting.
 
The old guard film community does not like RDC with their low prices, fantastic images, and cutting edge tech. So they use venues like this one to discredit RDC to the public and to blind the eyes of possible future RED owners. It happens all the time in the corporate world. If you can't beat them, discredit them. Now if the EPIC was $100k then their would be no problemo, but $30k!! Unthinkable.
Just think if they would have shown crystal clear 4k images in full 4k on those screens... Well the proverbial shoe would be on the other foot now wouldn't it? But sadly no, no one is going to do that, except for RED, and if RED does do it, the only people that would show up will be RED customers, and the only place it would be publicized is right here on RedUser.
 
People can have all the contests they want. It will be just like the video that says the GH2 images are not discernible from EPIC images... It's all poppycock. If they yell loud enough, and say it enough times, they hope that the general public will believe that RED is crap.
 
Like in pro audio today, everybody is a "music producer "or "engineer" because tools are more accessible. In the film / video world it's the same and a lot of people don't have the experience or eye just yet to be able to make intelligent observations. Not pointing fingers at anyone in this thread or forum at all but I think that as it was said before you should really shoot your own tests and also take "joe smith" opinion's with a grain of salt. With that said here's my "Joe Smith" account of the Zacuto screening... The GH2 was close to the bottom of my list and the Epic 3rd with Alexa 1st and F3 2nd.
 
Jon Jones said:
The old guard film community does not like RDC with their low prices, fantastic images, and cutting edge tech. So they use venues like this one to discredit RDC to the public and to blind the eyes of possible future RED owners. It happens all the time in the corporate world. If you can't beat them, discredit them. Now if the EPIC was $100k then their would be no problemo, but $30k!! Unthinkable.
Just think if they would have shown crystal clear 4k images in full 4k on those screens... Well the proverbial shoe would be on the other foot now wouldn't it? But sadly no, no one is going to do that, except for RED, and if RED does do it, the only people that would show up will be RED customers, and the only place it would be publicized is right here on RedUser.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with you. The good Epic videos I've seen shine on the big screens as well as on youtube. This Zacuto test is a hoax. Jut scan the internet and hear what DP and and producers have to say about the Red cameras. If you come from a film background, Redcams are a breeze to use. on the other hand if you come from dv, hdv, dslr, etc __________________________________ fill in the blanks. Surely an f3 or Alexa will give you instant glory.
 
The live Rec709 feed onset videovillage is exceptionally amazing. Producers get thrown off once they get to post and see an uber flat image. if you don't debayer and transcode well, you might be in for a surprise. like all highend tools there is a slight learning curve to using the red.
 
It's ok that you don't agree, that is at least 50% of the flack RED gets I think. However I do agree with you partially about people coming from different backgrounds. I think it's a little bit of both really.

shashbugu said:
I don't agree with you. The good Epic videos I've seen shine on the big screens as well as on youtube. This Zacuto test is a hoax. Jut scan the internet and hear what DP and and producers have to say about the Red cameras. If you come from a film background, Redcams are a breeze to use. on the other hand if you come from dv, hdv, dslr, etc __________________________________ fill in the blanks. Surely an f3 or Alexa will give you instant glory.
Click to expand...
 
My POV is this :
1. I'm not an A list cinematographer, but i'm working hard to achieve such a goal. RED is the only company that gave me enough courage to put ALL my savings in their gear, BEFORE thinking of buying a house for my family. The window the opened is HUGE. The creatives that they "unlock" are growing in number everyday. I truly believe in the path they traced. Even if the company shut down today, i have a camera (better to say a SYSTEM) with quite endless possibilities, enough for a lifetime career. This takes me to the second point...

2. The Zacuto test results look a lot like a kind of battle against Jim who refused to involve RED. Technically, he knows why. I don't. I don't have the knowledge to get it. But i do know that RED's images can't be that awful if it's shot and graded correctly. I love my Epic and i consider it as a tool. Full stop. A great tool though. A tool that allows me to express myself with a quality that was then the apanage of companies and wealthy enthusiastics. With a 5K camera, huge dynamic range, 300fps, etc... i don't care anymore about quality. I have Hollywood cinematic quality in my bedroom just like an "iPod". I do care now about ideas, concepts and stories. That's what it's all about now. We don't say it enough, but spending thousands of dollars in gear having nothing interesting to express is ridicule. Shooting an entire feature film with an iPhone with a great story is outstanding. The same story shot in RED will be a marvel and bring a lot of dollars within the entertainment industry. An amateur who buys an Epic without trying to make money with it is either a rich guy interested in cinematography or a fool. The pros are the main target of RED. So a real pro can't ignore the current storm created by RED in digital cinema. He can't honestly think that the Zacuto test is fair.

3. RED brought us freedom of creativity with uncompromising quality. The image quality they gave us is REALLY enough for two decades. I'm not a brainless fan of RED. I just love the "obsolescence is obsolete" way of thinking. It gives me enough confidence to dive into cinematography and directing as a Pro. A pro who wants to create and pay his bills. I love my job and everyday i feel lucky to do it. Even more with an Epic not far from my sight. Thanks Ted, Jarred, Jim and everybody at RED for your commitment to brighten my creative future. You've done enough for me. I feel that i should now "honor" my epic. He's simple and open minded enough to stand by me here in Africa.

CONCLUSION : Don't forget that a lot of "invaluable" images are still in VHS formats. People love what's recorded in those tapes. Not the tapes. Because CONTENT IS KING.

Peace.
 
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