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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

JPEG2000 in Adobe workflow?

Tom said:
Yeah, but I would need an NLE at some point. :) I don't think I could cut a 40-minute film with music in AE. Although, if I could, I could work straight off the RAW files and might not need an intermediate.

Maybe CS4 will not have a spatial resolution limit? 4K is a small bottleneck if you are hoping for an eventual DMR to 15-perf IMAX film. :)

So, in terms of RAM, I would probably need a 64-bit system, huh? 4GBs just aint gonna cut it for that kind of data.
Click to expand...

Here is a company that makes mjpeg200 codec for directshow.
The trial is free. Their interface allows you to set quality levels.

http://www.morgan-multimedia.com/M-JPEG2000/

I don't know how good it is btw.
Here is another one from Lead technologies for 10.00 USD.
Free trial too.
http://www.leadcodecs.com/codecs/LEAD-JPEG2000.htm
 
Tom said:
David, I have this insane idea about shooting an IMAX timelapse picture on a Canon 1Ds Mark III (14-bit 5616x3744 RAW frames) and doing post at near full res, with maybe a 10% downsample. Would this be feasible in Premiere Pro CS3?
Click to expand...

No, Adobe Premiere CS3 does not even do uncompressed 8-bit HD!:bleh:

I tried editing a 2-minute TL clip and, after downconverting all assets to 1920x1080 and to 8-bit I found that it just falls apart within seconds of even a simple cut edit. It is amazing that this multi-billion dollar company can't get this piece of overpriced crap working for over a decade. Sony Vegas is even worse with "support" to match.

If you find any half-decent editor, which can do just simple edit with cuts and disolves, let me know. Otherwise, I think, I will just write one myself :nerd:
 
time to start writing then.....


I don't understand, even an 8 core 3ghz mac I am testing can't playback a 1080p cineform 4:4:4 220megabit file without coughing...and it's only using 10% cpu!!! I don't get it.

pretty much seems like nothing works at this point for basic color and cuts only edit on an ONLINE file format
 
maybe I need to buy an AVID..oh wait, they are using DCT based compression from the 90's for a "format"


what on earth to do....i guess back to "offline" editing :)
 
In regards to the the 220mbit playback, on the 8 core mac. what disk system are you using? Unless your using a RAID that can shovel that amount of info to your CPU, of course the CPU will just tick over at 10%. On top of that just because you have 8 cores doesnt mean that they will all be used. There is a lot of software developement that needs to happen to even start using that many cores, and editing suites are very large cruise liners that take a while to get going in the right direction. The concurrency issues that come up when you start to use more than one core is huge. and NOBODY in the software industry has a magic bullet for this. A lot of poeple are scrabbling for this but havent quite got there yet. Do a google on the dinning philosophers problem and you might get an insight into the issues.

All the three top companies are in the same boat, and as a software engineer, they are totally justified on not being up there with that just yet. After all, CPU utilisation isnt the problem, and has never been, the first think your going to run out of is memory bandwidth, from your HDD to your Ram to your CPU.

Hope this Helps!

Cheers

Mark
 
Obin, I think you've already downloaded our latest Mac release. I'm curious if your performance took a move upwards on the CF-444 clip from what you describe in your earlier post. Here is some background:

  • We're waiting on our 8-core machine at CineForm. Our current machine is an older Dual Dual.
  • During performance testing on Mac when OUTSIDE both QT Player and FCP, we have almost the same performance on Mac as we do on Windows. As you probably know we're highly threaded, and can keep the Windows CPU meters at 100% much of the time - even on an 8-core Windows box. On Mac outside QT Player or FCP, when we call the codec directly, we get similar performance. However, when using QT Player and FCP, performance falls off dramatically. QT Player won't let us use the multi-resolution playback characteristics of Wavelets. "Odd" calls that kill threading efficiency seem to happen from FCP. The result of both is to significantly lower performance for an end user.
  • When the CPU meters get to 50% FCP seems to unilaterally decide to drop to 12 fps for playback (what's that about?) to keep the meters below 50%, then it might further drop to 6 fps. If that same characteristic holds, then you should get more performance on an 8-core machine, although FCP will still probably throttle you at 50%.
We've been able to improve things a bit by reducing (but not eliminating) the "odd" codec calls FCP makes, which improves performance somewhat, but we can't seem to workaround this 50% threshold.
 
Well the thing is, for us, one dropped frame and we are screwed as we always edit to single frames for all projects all the time. Try cutting a trailer with fast cuts and dropped frames? try cutting a dialog scene with audio that is NEVER in sync without going back 5 sec on the timeline to hit "play" so your software can catch up(this on the windows box) all I ask of all the frames all the time with sync audio that never fails.

at this point it seems more and more that this is out of the question and we really need to start offline online projects, FCP does not work, Premiere does not work, premiere with cineform engine is worse then all the above.

hmm....I did find an almost solution today though, RAID 0 local SATA with NON cineform DESKTOP project using 1080p cineform files in PROXY playback mode in premiere works pretty well...best yet, and far better then cineform engine inside premiere.

problem with that is no HDSDI, but I guess that could come with the "online" just make a cineform project and then "online" with HDSDI....oh, but wait!! premiere color tools are for toddlers in terms of bit depth support and high precision in the color controls, NOTHING even CLOSE to what good old REDCINE can achive in terms of quality so back to square one ...again!

starting to blow around here.

we need tools that work, for less then a nice family car. Oh wait, I could get a scratch I guess...and sit wondering how I can get clients to pay for it? :) but wait, I bet scratch does not fully support deep pixel from cineform, using the 8bit output from the files as so many others that "don't support cineform" oh well.....

I guess I will keep doing what I do best. looking for a solution.

:):)

Did someone say FCP? hope not...Reference files from red support only? don't think that is going to fly when we are in and out of compositors all the time and need real high quality files to work from that will not degrade across apps

back to cineform, C"mon guys, you have always had the "right idea" now lets get some guys on your team to make this shit ROCK SOLID - ASAP - I have been waiting for 4 years with you!!! you almost have it. so close.
 
So Tom if avid is a "dinosaur" and FCP/premiere blow...whats left?

I used to think I just needed to throw money at something, now I am starting to think I just can't buy what I need....
 
D.T. You aren't quite correct about the way FCP degrades, it is not quite that bad, though your post certain has the feel for the frustration FCP has for third party developers, which I voice to you daily.

To outsiders we have beefed up our Mac engineering in the last month, finally making big progress on this platform. Add will are adding more engineering, looking for talented media centric engineers.

Obin, you know you can always call us if you having issues. We know there is no perfect solution, but will constructive feedback you know can influence the product (as you have many times in the past.) Audio sync is no issue when the AJA drivers are setup correctly, every video frame is hardware synced to every audio packet. If your having issues there talk to Jake in support.

P.S. The current Prospect 4K public beta adds the 3D LUT engine to 444 sources, that will safe you huge amounts of time in color correction, give you more RT choices for your color correction.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
No, Adobe Premiere CS3 does not even do uncompressed 8-bit HD!:bleh:
Click to expand...
Wrong.
Adobe CS3 handles 10bit RGB, YUV and more. In SD, HD; 2K and 4K.
Thousands of systems do that daily - i am writing of one of them while its munching through hours of uncompressed 10bit right now in the background.

Pawel Achtel said:
I tried editing a 2-minute TL clip and, after downconverting all assets to 1920x1080 and to 8-bit I found that it just falls apart within seconds of even a simple cut edit. It is amazing that this multi-billion dollar company can't get this piece of overpriced crap working for over a decade. Sony Vegas is even worse with "support" to match.
Click to expand...
Pawel, with all due respect - your conclusion is wrong.
An operator error doesnt mean that the machine is faulty.

You need support and consulting to setup your machine (probably only the codecs) correctly.

If you want some powerful HD-SDI i/o including 2K/1080 i/o with 10 and more bits in RGB and YUV, via SMPTE 259M, SMPTE 344M, SMPTE 292M,
SMPTE 372M and SMPTE 424M 3G-SDI, then aja (www.aja.com) and blackmagic design (www.decklink.com) are pretty usual expansion. We connect HDCAM (SR) via their product - and its working excellent in 10 bits since years.

Pawel Achtel said:
If you find any half-decent editor, which can do just simple edit with cuts and disolves, let me know. Otherwise, I think, I will just write one myself :nerd:
Click to expand...
Adobe CS3, Avid MC, Apple FCP.
The only one of these who can handle 4K@10/16bit RGB is Adobe Premiere CS3.
 
Tom said:
Avid is a dinosaur.
Click to expand...
Sometimes a T-Rex is slightly more powerful than a braindamaged pink poodle in its puberty....
:)
 
audio sync is a not an issue with HDSDI, but with premiere on our other edit system its way out, so we are not using the cineform engine..to be honest its far far more stable and way better interface response. I think if I could get premiere to playback in HIGH QUALITY instead of PROXY in the monitor window this is the way to fly, why can't premiere playback at full res when windows media player can David?

3ghz 4core system....do I need 8cores to get premiere to playback in realtime a single video stream of 220mbt cineform 1080p with no color correct on it?
 
understood, however your looking at uncompressed, that will work all day long with fast disks, what I am talking about is a compressed format like cineform

laguun said:
Wrong.
Adobe CS3 handles 10bit RGB, YUV and more. In SD, HD; 2K and 4K.
Thousands of systems do that daily - i am writing of one of them while its munching through hours of uncompressed 10bit right now in the background.


Pawel, with all due respect - your conclusion is wrong.
An operator error doesnt mean that the machine is faulty.

You need support and consulting to setup your machine (probably only the codecs) correctly.

If you want some powerful HD-SDI i/o including 2K/1080 i/o with 10 and more bits in RGB and YUV, via SMPTE 259M, SMPTE 344M, SMPTE 292M,
SMPTE 372M and SMPTE 424M 3G-SDI, then aja (www.aja.com) and blackmagic design (www.decklink.com) are pretty usual expansion. We connect HDCAM (SR) via their product - and its working excellent in 10 bits since years.


Adobe CS3, Avid MC, Apple FCP.
The only one of these who can handle 4K@10/16bit RGB is Adobe Premiere CS3.
Click to expand...
 
obin said:
audio sync is a not an issue with HDSDI, but with premiere on our other edit system its way out, so we are not using the cineform engine..to be honest its far far more stable and way better interface response. I think if I could get premiere to playback in HIGH QUALITY instead of PROXY in the monitor window this is the way to fly, why can't premiere playback at full res when windows media player can David?

3ghz 4core system....do I need 8cores to get premiere to playback in realtime a single video stream of 220mbt cineform 1080p with no color correct on it?
Click to expand...

You can see why we replace the Premiere engine, it is simply much slower than our own. We can look into why your audio is out of sync without HDSDI, but that is a question for support. As for stability, report issue to support, if there are crashes we will fix them. Report to support not here as it is not Red related.
 
what I was saying is Premiere WITHOUT cineform is far more stable and responsive. Thats why we are NOT using your engine on our B edit machine right now.

I would suggest work on your codec and let Premiere handle the other parts, it seems to work well except for the fact that it will only playback in proxy mode on the Monitor of the timeline....
 
obin said:
what I was saying is Premiere WITHOUT cineform is far more stable and responsive. Thats why we are NOT using your engine on our B edit machine right now.
Click to expand...

That is very contrary to my experience cutting several projects on CS3 using Cineform as the primary codec. I did not have any problems there, other than Premiere's lousy memory handling which is not something Cineform can solve. I've cut at 1080p, 2k full-app, and 4k 2:1. I've had all cineform timelines, mixed timelines, etc...

Maybe the problem lies in some hardware incompatibility or os issue? Have you gone through a trouble-ticket cycle with cineform?


regards,

jt
 
you don't get 2 sec delay when hitting space bar to start timeline playback?
 
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