Jim, Jarred, discussion on 1080p out

[Jay A. Kelley]

I would like to begin a discussion on something that's very important to me. The ability to record in formats OTHER than R3d.

(I can hear Jim, Jarred, and others sharpening their claws now...)

Let me say first off: If quality matters above all, then there is no arguement in my mind that R3D files are the way to go.

That said, SOME of my clients, especially in the corporate world, do not share that concern. Their priority, above all else, is to get the footage from me the same day I shoot it, and begin editing later that day or the following morning in their own post workflow. They want formats they are used too, and they do not want to deal with anything else.

I want to use my Epic, and even MORE important, I DON'T want to have to turn to another camera when it's time for corporate work. So the answer to this is the clean 1080p out. I am running on the assumption that Jim and Jarred and everyone else at RED put this into the camera with the specific intention of allowinig us to do a number of things with it, one of the main ones would be to allow us to output to a generic recording device which supports the format of the client we are working with.

If possible I don't want this thread to degenerate into a debate on what our clients SHOULD be using, as I am someone that does not use the words "no" when working for a person who is payinig me.

What I'd like to know are the specifics of the 1080p out.

How many audio channels?
Can I set the color space?
What is the QUALITY of the downconvert? (This is a big one). Are we talking low grade proxies or full 4:2:2 broadcast grade output?
Are there any other outs (Such as HDMI) that can be clean, recordable outs as well?

I want to be able to use a product such as the nano-flash (For sony) or a P2 Recorder and record what I shoot on the Epic, then turn around and deliver that material to my client when I am done shooting.

Any answers to these questions would be wonderful..

Remember.. I love R3D... I just want to make as much money as possible with my new camera! Recording flexibility is key.

Thanks in advance!

Jay

PS.. Shameless plug: -> Have you purchased the RED101 DVD yet? You SHOULD! It rocks.. Ask around. (Sorry.. Had to do that). :blush:

 

[Häakon]

It's just like a dSLR... there are times when RAW is the only acceptable choice, and sometimes shooting in JPEG makes much more sense. There's a lot of talk around here about how compressed formats for acquisition are the work of the devil, but I have been on more than a handful of projects where not needing an intermediate conversion step would've been mighty nice. I'd bet they'd sell more than a couple prores modules if such a thing were available.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Don't need to wait for Epic/Scarlet because simply this can be done RIGHT NOW on R1 (even better R1-M-X) with a new firmware that has option to CLEAN HD-SDI and HDMI output from any additional monitor information.

We would need HD-SDI/HDMI 1080p clean preview signal and it's ready to record.

Then you can go with it directly to your HD-SDI/HDMI desktop capture card or mobile with AJA KiPro, nanoFlash or similar HDSDI/HDMI or even ANY HD-SDI TAPE recorders.

 

[David Battistella]

Jay

I think RED is created around a Tapeless workflow with a RAW image capture at the center. I think that they could provide us with the tools to record to HDCAM SR but I'm not sure I really want to see a RED looking like a Sony product.

Is that revolutionary?

I'd say if they really wanted to try kill the ff35 f900 market they would be attempting to unseat some pretty loyal customers who paid a lot of money for the gear that they defend at all costs.

I'm not sure a move toward focusing camera resources on making the HDSDI a 4444 signal would be of great benefit, but it would fit the Swiss army knife camera we were expecting.

I respect the fact that you'd love to make more money with tour camera but I am not sure the red is best suited to live 1080p recording. If I wanted that flexibility I'd buy an f900 but I do not really demand that of my red.

I want the resources poured into improving RAW. If we get a decent video tap that's a bonus. But thus is a digital film camera and I don't want things to stray to far from that core idea.

David.

 

[Milan Spasic]

While we are at it, can we also have an espresso tap on the side of the camera please?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I want to be able to use a product such as the nano-flash (For sony) or a P2 Recorder and record what I shoot on the Epic, then turn around and deliver that material to my client when I am done shooting.

Any answers to these questions would be wonderful..

Remember.. I love R3D... I just want to make as much money as possible with my new camera! Recording flexibility is key.

Thanks in advance!

Jay

Jay - although the RED ONE is limited to 720p output during shooting - you CAN get 422 and 444 output - and 1080 output on playback - with timecode, audio and even valid frame flags and clipname meta-data - logic would dictate that EPIC would have the same and more.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

I would like to begin a discussion on something that's very important to me. The ability to record in formats OTHER than R3d.

(I can hear Jim, Jarred, and others sharpening their claws now...)

Let me say first off: If quality matters above all, then there is no arguement in my mind that R3D files are the way to go.

That said, SOME of my clients, especially in the corporate world, do not share that concern. Their priority, above all else, is to get the footage from me the same day I shoot it, and begin editing later that day or the following morning in their own post workflow. They want formats they are used too, and they do not want to deal with anything else.

I want to use my Epic, and even MORE important, I DON'T want to have to turn to another camera when it's time for corporate work. So the answer to this is the clean 1080p out. I am running on the assumption that Jim and Jarred and everyone else at RED put this into the camera with the specific intention of allowinig us to do a number of things with it, one of the main ones would be to allow us to output to a generic recording device which supports the format of the client we are working with.

If possible I don't want this thread to degenerate into a debate on what our clients SHOULD be using, as I am someone that does not use the words "no" when working for a person who is payinig me.

What I'd like to know are the specifics of the 1080p out.

How many audio channels?
Can I set the color space?
What is the QUALITY of the downconvert? (This is a big one). Are we talking low grade proxies or full 4:2:2 broadcast grade output?
Are there any other outs (Such as HDMI) that can be clean, recordable outs as well?

I want to be able to use a product such as the nano-flash (For sony) or a P2 Recorder and record what I shoot on the Epic, then turn around and deliver that material to my client when I am done shooting.

Any answers to these questions would be wonderful..

Remember.. I love R3D... I just want to make as much money as possible with my new camera! Recording flexibility is key.

Thanks in advance!

Jay

PS.. Shameless plug: -> Have you purchased the RED101 DVD yet? You SHOULD! It rocks.. Ask around. (Sorry.. Had to do that). :blush:

Hi Jay-

I think its possible TODAY to get the best of BOTH worlds... you simply need to buy a RED ROCKET and enjoy faster than RT/ FULL QUALITY 4K Debayers to PRORES QUAD (Prores4444) or PRORES 422.

I Trust you and your clients will agree its always best to ACQUIRE at the highest resolution possible... and the RR gives you transcode power to deliver an ONLINE FORMAT... for OFFLINE... in no time.

The Red Rocket gives you MINUTIES.. not just DAILIES and if you need more control over CC. I suggest ROCKET FUEL would be a nice addition to your arsenal for delivering CC dailies.

Good luck and Happy Shooting!

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Just to throw it out there- why not look into another solid state recorder and record the Video out form the camera. I believe that there are several options out there- something like what Panasonic offers: P2 DVCPRO / AVC Recorder . Something like this may work for you now ...

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Hey guys... why you want that...?

Please change subject...

What will happen with all of us that we making good money because RED's doesn't have a 1080p out?

Isn't it perfect like that?

You guys, have the cameras... we do the renting...

No, no, no, no, let it be like that...! its much better...:hurray:

 

[James Milner-Smyth]

Dear NASA

I really appreciate your space shuttle, which has served us well for like, going into space and stuff.

But your shuttle is very inconvenient when it comes to driving down the high street: it uses a lot of gas, needs a really good take-off pad and ideal weather conditions. A lot of my clients just need to make local trips and don't like waiting around for a good weather window for take-off.

I don't want to have to buy a local tour bus as well as my space shuttle to service this market. Can you make it so that your space shuttle can be used to do the airport-hotel run as well?

Many thanks in advance.

James
(and a happy new year to all! No offence intended)

 

[J Davis]

I want this.
There are times when you want options in post and there are times when you don't want any post at all.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Mark, Ryan, Haakon, thanks for trying to help me out. Mark, I think you are the closest to the answer, I am HOPING that RED has accomplished during shooting what you are referring too during playback. But, since there is no official word on it, I am trying to get more information in order to find out what I am dealing with next year.

James, I know you are trying to be funny, but I am not laughing. The clean output is already on the Epic.. So apparently RED is trying to increase the "gas milage of the shuttle after all"... I'm just trying to get details.

Tim, you are still speaking of an extra step that takes more time than I have.. I shoot interviews for Fox Sports a lot of times.. We get there with one hour to set up, shoot the talent, then hand the tape to the Producer who then gets on a plane with it WHILE we are breaking down.. It's me and one other guy for crew.

I do like the idea of getting a clean output on my R1 now.. But I have always thought if they could do this they would have by now since it was such a popular request.

Jay

 

[Jason H]

hey jay,

just send your media after the shoot to a place like mine http://thecoloringroom.com/

and I'll trascode it to a format your edit house wants then overnight it back to you and get them to stop bitching at you. Super cheap rates on my red rocket renders! I also do lto backups. I'm in 53213 zip code.

good luck

j

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Please know that I love my RED more than any other camera I have ever owned. I feel that I am a part of the RED family. I still want more. I want the swiss army knife. I want the flexible system that can be many things to many people. I want to be able to replace a Genisis, a Varicam, and yes, even an HVX200 or Sony EX3.. I can see so many of you rolling your eyes at me right now, but the Epic and Scarlet can do this! A B4 mount is not going to be too tough, and with external HD-SDI recording devices the Epic/Scarlet cameras can "become" whatever we need them too.

This thought is very exciting to me as a customer, and I would expect it to be exciting to RED as a company.

Of course the end all - be all would be modules you could buy that would record in different formats if needed.. If Nano-Flash can do it, you know RED can. Think about it, a module that allows you to record in any Sony / Quicktime / Prorez codec at 1080/720/480 selection using RED's standard capture media, or it would have a different CF card slot for this purpose alone... Then perhaps another Module for the P2 crowd (If that's allowed, have not seen 3rd party P2 capture).

Laugh at me all you want for this suggestion, but I'd be willing to bet all the money in my pockets, against all the money in your pockets that those modules would sell like hot cakes.

Those two modules with an epic and you'd effectively own:
A Epic 5K camera
A Varicam
An HVX200
A Sony EX3
An F900
Panasonic 3000


I have been passionate about this for a long time. But please, I'd like to think given my time with this company, and the "little product" I produced for the camera, that I have a very good grasp of what RED is, and what it's supposed to do... Nevertheless, I think it can do more, and be more.. It's my job to push it. You can disagree with me, but at least respect the point of view.

Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

hey jay,

just send your media after the shoot to a place like mine http://thecoloringroom.com/

and I'll trascode it to a format your edit house wants then overnight it back to you and get them to stop bitching at you. Super cheap rates on my RED Rocket™ renders! I also do lto backups. I'm in 53213 zip code.

good luck

j

I think you missed my point completely.
Jay

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

OK Jay, now I understand your dilemma, but in fairness, your original post said you had to have offlines ready by "evening" or next morning..." not while wrapping.

this sounds more like a job for Scarlet Fixed than EPIC (the later I interpret to be my PRO DIGITAL CINEMA camera.) Id use Scarlet Fixed for Run-N-Gun.

That said, I would expect much resistance from RED, given you are asking them to add a VIDEO RECORDER to "bake-in" a look into the transcoded file...

I think a 3rd party is more likely to develop that and the good news is BOMB EVF Specs state that the camera WILL support 1080P out. (subject to change of course)

Still think its a shame a producer cant wait 20 to 30 minutes more (assuming 30 min interview) to get 4K FULL Quality Debayers transcoded for editorial. You can also make $ with this service.

But your market demands sound faster than any clients we have.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

OK Jay, now I understand your dilemma, but in fairness, your original post said you had to have offlines ready by "evening" or next morning..." not while wrapping.

this sounds more like a job for Scarlet Fixed than EPIC (the later I interpret to be my PRO DIGITAL CINEMA camera.) Id use Scarlet Fixed for Run-N-Gun.

That said, I would expect much resistance from RED, given you are asking them to add a VIDEO RECORDER to "bake-in" a look into the transcoded file...

I think a 3rd party is more likely to develop that and the good news is BOMB EVF Specs state that the camera WILL support 1080P out. (subject to change of course)

Still think its a shame a producer cant wait 20 to 30 minutes more (assuming 30 min interview) to get 4K FULL Quality Debayers transcoded for editorial. You can also make $ with this service.

But your market demands sound faster than any clients we have.

Tim, why do you say Scarlet instead of Epic? Is not Epic simply a Scarlet with more abilities?

I agree in that I do not expect RED to create the modules I asked for.. But if the 1080 out is what I expect it to be, there will be other options available.

Jay

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Jay,

you don't have to be worry so much because I'm sure that maybe you'll get this feature with R1 pretty soon.

How?

Just because maybe RED is going to give R1 a sort of "second" life with M-X sensor upgrade

and also with many new features like this that would be included in one of next firmware upgrades.

Why?

Epic an Scarlet still need enough time to get perfect and to be ready for its launch.

Here "enough time" means very open time frame without any strictly "timecode" involved.

 

[Julio Quintana]

I would also use this feature. If the new FLUT color science does in fact make it easier to nail exposure, I would feel more comfortable "baking in" exposure decision when time is of the essence.

 

[Robert Berger]

no fear

no fear

I would like to begin a discussion on something that's very important to me. The ability to record in formats OTHER than R3d.

(I can hear Jim, Jarred, and others sharpening their claws now...)

Let me say first off: If quality matters above all, then there is no arguement in my mind that R3D files are the way to go.

That said, SOME of my clients, especially in the corporate world, do not share that concern. Their priority, above all else, is to get the footage from me the same day I shoot it, and begin editing later that day or the following morning in their own post workflow. They want formats they are used too, and they do not want to deal with anything else.

I want to use my Epic, and even MORE important, I DON'T want to have to turn to another camera when it's time for corporate work. So the answer to this is the clean 1080p out. I am running on the assumption that Jim and Jarred and everyone else at RED put this into the camera with the specific intention of allowinig us to do a number of things with it, one of the main ones would be to allow us to output to a generic recording device which supports the format of the client we are working with.

If possible I don't want this thread to degenerate into a debate on what our clients SHOULD be using, as I am someone that does not use the words "no" when working for a person who is payinig me.

What I'd like to know are the specifics of the 1080p out.

How many audio channels?
Can I set the color space?
What is the QUALITY of the downconvert? (This is a big one). Are we talking low grade proxies or full 4:2:2 broadcast grade output?
Are there any other outs (Such as HDMI) that can be clean, recordable outs as well?

I want to be able to use a product such as the nano-flash (For sony) or a P2 Recorder and record what I shoot on the Epic, then turn around and deliver that material to my client when I am done shooting.

Any answers to these questions would be wonderful..

Remember.. I love R3D... I just want to make as much money as possible with my new camera! Recording flexibility is key.

Thanks in advance!

Jay

PS.. Shameless plug: -> Have you purchased the RED101 DVD yet? You SHOULD! It rocks.. Ask around. (Sorry.. Had to do that). :blush:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brook Willard View Post
Excellent. So tools like false color, waveforms and histograms will all read accurately at all ASAs! That'll be a fantastic update. Coupled with a reworked colorspace and what I can only assume to be more consistent video boards, it sounds like the HD output from the camera will be much more akin to a traditional HD camera [aka accurate, trustworthy] than what I often explain as a very good video tap! Can't wait.
You sure went around the block with that one...

Jim
__________________
"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.


its all here,

best regards

Robert M. Berger NSC
Red One 1265 untill Epic comes