Jim Cameron buys...

[Lorenzo Straight]

No, minutes with a good rig.

I wish people wouldn't keep propagating these myths.

How many rigs/£D shoots have you worked on?

I've worked with most rigs now and minutes is all it takes.

I agree. I haven't worked on a 3D shoot yet but hour's sounds insane. It shouldn't take that long to change out a lens. If it does someone's a little under qualified.

 

[Michael Shilnov]

What I was trying to say is that if we have one rig and change the glass 5-6 times a day we lose at least an hour, an hour when the cam is not ready to roll. Which is an issue on big productions, being much more costly than the expenses associated with the camera. Which gives EPIC one of its many niches on big sets, not just the unprecedented resolution in raw and all the rest, but this unprecedented level of affordability when you can have a rig for just that piece of glass. Kind of like in action photography, a different camera house for each of your lenses, but in 3D 4K FF RAW cinematography. Sounds like good times to me :yesnod: Sorry if I was a little unclear previously

 

[geoffboyle]

Which gives EPIC one of its many niches on big sets, not just the unprecedented resolution in raw and all the rest, but this unprecedented level of affordability when you can have a rig for just that piece of glass. Kind of like in action photography, a different camera house for each of your lenses, but in 3D 4K FF RAW cinematography. Sounds like good times to me :yesnod: Sorry if I was a little unclear previously

Good recovery but still no win!

How much does a 3ality rig cost?

I think you'll find that it's significantly more than a couple of cameras, then of course there's the software license for it on top.

A top of the line 3D rig is not cheap, figures from one of the rig manufacturers show a total cost of around $280 for either of the leading rigs complete with Epics. You can work out for your self how much the rig is as part of that.

A heavier Element Technica Atom, no cameras, lenses etc, lists at $84K with another $20K for the lightweight version.

I agree that saving time is vital on a movie set and I believe that's one of the reasons that the 3ality rigs are so popular on the big movies, you can safely use zooms with them with no alignment issues.

 

[Patric Ralston]

Hi Geoff,

I wish I could tell you how much a 3ality rig costs (in £). Unfortunately I can t buy one as ARRI Media have an exclusive deal in the UK....(according to 3ality)

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Just to clarify, that a 3D rig cost is not of what the actually rig body costs, but what the entire operational rig costs, same as for an Epic,
the body might cost 28k but to make it work you need a Lens, a View finder or LCD, batteries, cables etc, same for a 3D rig,
I will not of course discuss publicly pricing of the various rigs, but if you want a 3D rig fully operational and you want one form the BIG BOYS, like ET,
3Ality and E3D, better budget yourself above 100k... better

 

[geoffboyle]

Hi Geoff,

I wish I could tell you how much a 3ality rig costs (in £). Unfortunately I can t buy one as ARRI Media have an exclusive deal in the UK....(according to 3ality)

I think that you'll find that Arri Media have an exclusive rental deal with 3ality and that if you asked Lucas nicely he'd quite happily take your money for a rig!

Of course when I wrote $280 earlier I meant $280K

 

[Patric Ralston]

Hi Geoff,
I have spoken to Lucus via email. Apparently its a no go to purchase a T5 rig as i run a rental house in the UK.... which is a pity as I have a minimum of 4 Epics coming my way...

I guess they will fit quite well on my P+S Freestyle Evolution rig thou

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Hi Geoff,
I have spoken to Lucus via email. Apparently its a no go to purchase a T5 rig as i run a rental house in the UK.... which is a pity as I have a minimum of 4 Epics coming my way...

I guess they will fit quite well on my P+S Freestyle Evolution rig thou

Patric, you should speak to Ketch Rossi, since he is receiving ET Atoms this week -- and also is speaking to some other new manufacturers where the details are yet to be released. Also, since he will be in Europe soon you might be able to make a trip and check out his 3D setups ...

 

[geoffboyle]

Hi Geoff,
I have spoken to Lucus via email. Apparently its a no go to purchase a T5 rig as i run a rental house in the UK.... which is a pity as I have a minimum of 4 Epics coming my way...

I guess they will fit quite well on my P+S Freestyle Evolution rig thou

Hi Patrick, sorry, I didn't realise that you wanted them for rental company use, that is definitely an AM exclusive.

The ET Atom is the best way I can see for you to go, great rig, nice people.

Just as a matter of interest, how many SI's do you have, you know, the camera that Scarlet was going to replace?

 

[Patric Ralston]

Hi Geoff,

I have 3 x SI-3D Mini Heads (ie 1 x pair + a spare). Also a 1 Beyond MINI wrangler, 2 x 9.5mm and 2 x 14mm Ultra 16s etc.
Just getting a quote for a Cinedeck Extreme with SI-2K camera option for use on my Freestyle Rig....

 

[Felipe Abreu]

Jims, please be careful with accidentally build The Skynet with all this brains!!!!!!

 

[Nuka Wølk]

Hmmm...I'm curious. Even though there is the possibility that Cameron will now shoot AVATAR 2 on (his fifty) EPIC's, that doesn't automatically mean that we'll see a full 4K version in the theaters. Here's why: Cameron himself have said that it's not cost effective to go over the 2K mark on CGI, since it would take too long to render - hence cost too much. So that could possibly mean that even though he might shoot on the EPIC for the live action sequences in 5K - he might choose to have a 2K MASTER with less resolution so that it would "fit" in with the CGI sequences - that is, if he does actually practice what he preach. There's also the issue with 48fps - which would mean double rendertime on CGI = double the cost (right?). So that would also kill the budget if they wanted to go full 4K on the 48fps CGI renders. Then again, it IS Cameron I'm talking about here, so he might just insist on givin' AVATAR 2 the full on 4K treatment anyway - with the argument that he's just "future-proofing" his film, hehe - at least I really, really hope so ;D

All this btw would also apply to Peter Jackson's THE HOBBIT - which also is a CGI heavy show.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yes and no to increased render time. It would certainly be higher than 2k but not necessary 4x as high just for the resolution increase.

All renderings are already supersampled. So they're actually rendering at ~8k+ samples most of the time but then downsampling to 2k for the actual rendered image. Also most renderings employ adaptive sampling so a plain white wall will be 2k of detail but a grassy field will be rendering at 8k equivalent sampling. If they render at 4k they might find that they don't actually need any more samples and just accept a slightly more aliased 4k image over a smoother 2k. I often render off 4k passes for 1080p deliverables.

The real cost of increased 4k vs 2k would come in the composite and on the file server where you would have to move significantly more data. However pushed in part by Avatar and the nature of its incredibly dense forest sequences the industry has started moving towards deep-pixel compositing which stores every sample anyway--in which case a 4k image at 2x2 sampling and a 2k image at 4x4 sampling would be exactly the same file size and render cost in the composite. OpenEXR 2.0 will be the start of that going mainstream and it'll probably be ready for Avatar 2.

 

[Deanan]

A couple of upcoming and current projects are planning 4k+3k/2k (where appropriate) hybrid pipelines. 4k for general footage and background plates and 3k/2k depending on the shot. Often times the fast paced shots are fine at a lower res.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Yes and no to increased render time. It would certainly be higher than 2k but not necessary 4x as high just for the resolution increase.

All renderings are already supersampled. So they're actually rendering at ~8k+ samples most of the time but then downsampling to 2k for the actual rendered image. Also most renderings employ adaptive sampling so a plain white wall will be 2k of detail but a grassy field will be rendering at 8k equivalent sampling. If they render at 4k they might find that they don't actually need any more samples and just accept a slightly more aliased 4k image over a smoother 2k. I often render off 4k passes for 1080p deliverables.

The real cost of increased 4k vs 2k would come in the composite and on the file server where you would have to move significantly more data. However pushed in part by Avatar and the nature of its incredibly dense forest sequences the industry has started moving towards deep-pixel compositing which stores every sample anyway--in which case a 4k image at 2x2 sampling and a 2k image at 4x4 sampling would be exactly the same file size and render cost in the composite. OpenEXR 2.0 will be the start of that going mainstream and it'll probably be ready for Avatar 2.

Given what you've said Gavin, I would guess the actual extra cost for 4k in relative % to the overall budgetary costs of a $200-300 million film aren't that significant. Or at least not enough of deterrent to at least product a 4k version for theaters that can show it -- or distribution once 4k becomes more prevalent. I think we have to remember that by 2013 we could have a lot more 4k compatible TV's in the home as well.

 

[Lorenzo Straight]

Given what you've said Gavin, I would guess the actual extra cost for 4k in relative % to the overall budgetary costs of a $200-300 million film aren't that significant. Or at least not enough of deterrent to at least product a 4k version for theaters that can show it -- or distribution once 4k becomes more prevalent. I think we have to remember that by 2013 we could have a lot more 4k compatible TV's in the home as well.

So basically, the rest of the world of filmmaking need to catch up, because Red has gone and made these totally unnecessarily large sensors! Now Jim, darn it. With great power comes great responsibility. Maybe Red should help software companies make their renderer's 4K ready. How could Red expect everyone to step up their game? The nerve!

 

[Nuka Wølk]

Thanks for the great and insightful replies, guys! Now, I'm not nearly as worried as I was before ;D

I'm really excited to hear about the 4k+3k/2k (where appropriate) hybrid pipeline, which of course makes a lot of sense. If you SHOULD compromise - then only at the "sweet spots" where no one's gonna notice anyway.

I don't care what anyone thinks of AVATAR, I love that film and now I can't help but to anticipate to see Pandora in 4K - at least in some shots in the sequel And I also hope that they'll go with the same pipeline on THE HOBBIT!!

@Lorenzo - Hahahaha!! Yea, now RED really needs to create 4K super fast rendering hardware for post houses. GO RED!!! ;D

 

[Tom Greenberg]

So basically, the rest of the world of filmmaking need to catch up, because Red has gone and made these totally unnecessarily large sensors! Now Jim, darn it. With great power comes great responsibility. Maybe Red should help software companies make their renderer's 4K ready. How could Red expect everyone to step up their game? The nerve!

This is a constant issue in our industry, especially affecting post-production and distribution workflows. One part of the process has a technological breakthrough, and leapfrogs everything else, and then the rest of the pieces have to play catch-up. As soon as resolution increases, the following happens: render times go up, files get bigger, bandwidth is too limited, file transfers take longer, media storage isn't adequate, video processing can't keep up, monitors can't handle display needs, and so on. We went through this process when SD video moved to 720p HD, went through it again with the move to 1080p, and are beginning to go through it again as the industry embraces 4K. As Jim says, all things are subject to change. In this industry, change is inevitable, so you better learn to love it!

 

[Lorenzo Straight]

This is a constant issue in our industry, especially affecting post-production and distribution workflows. One part of the process has a technological breakthrough, and leapfrogs everything else, and then the rest of the pieces have to play catch-up. As soon as resolution increases, the following happens: render times go up, files get bigger, bandwidth is too limited, file transfers take longer, media storage isn't adequate, video processing can't keep up, monitors can't handle display needs, and so on. We went through this process when SD video moved to 720p HD, went through it again with the move to 1080p, and are beginning to go through it again as the industry embraces 4K. As Jim says, all things are subject to change. In this industry, change is inevitable, so you better learn to love it!

Yeah, the thinking caps need to be put on.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

So basically, the rest of the world of filmmaking need to catch up, because Red has gone and made these totally unnecessarily large sensors! Now Jim, darn it. With great power comes great responsibility. Maybe Red should help software companies make their renderer's 4K ready. How could Red expect everyone to step up their game? The nerve!

Give it 2-3 years.

Brazil + OpenRL: http://caustic.com/ *
VRay RT: http://chaosgroup.com/en/2/vray2.html
Final Render + OpenCL: http://www.cebasstation.com/?pid=hot_news&nid=378

*Disclosure: I'm a freelance contractor for Caustic.