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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I've made a big decision...

at least it'll be the best damn crunch so far.
 
Hi Jay,

very good thread!

Helps everyone to rethink personally what RED can do for one and what RED cannot do.

1. RED is very good at EFP as long you've got the time to transcode from REDRAW to what ever is needed.

2. RED is very good at EFP as long you don't need longer record time as currently CF cards can hold.

The line between ENG and EFP can be blurry. For instance some EFP work that even doesn't deal with news needs instant delivery in a standard tape format. Hard to accomplish with the RED workflow. Not to mention the current lack of on-board sound. Booting time is pretty long as well...

In the current state RED can do any EFP work which a S16 camera can do (though one has to call it FFP) with better resolution, grain, etc... of course.

These things will change some day when we will have light weight (not 35mm format but S16) PL zooms with 1-15 ratio and electric zoom motor, working on-board sound and a codec that is well implemented in the broadcast world globally.
Until then REDONE is a digital cinema camera with a big future in EFP work that does not need instant delivery, etc...

For me, RED will substitute a lot of rented gear, mainly Sony F900R and Arri 35mm. Tomorrow I will shoot a commercial with an Arri 235 (nice, little baby) and in 3 months or so I probably won't shoot 35mm or HDCAM any more for the rest of my life. Kind of strange...

RED will not make me rich but will give me some room for experimental stuff and will pay for it self. Great.

Hans

(I am going to keep our most hated Sony Z1 (instant delivery, easy handling, cheap) as well as my beloved Arri S16mm which probably won't expose one single frame any more)
 
Its not a ENG camera or...i have been shooting a testing day for a documentair, 4K for the debt of field and post won't be a lot more expensive because of redcine. I had to use the 19mm steel tubes just to adjust my 15mm one for myn mattebox and followfocus. I worked with the dvrig to carry the load of the camera and it was a delight working al by myself with the debt of field frrom 35. His my happy faceView attachment 1857
 
Jay, I agree with you. I'm sure many will use the RED for many different types of production. I am open to trying different things. Shooting 2k at 20 minutes a card is just as good as the HVX200 workflow we are using thus far, however its really a weight issue and being able to get 3 RED's on our set. Also it comes down to financial as well. HVX200 rental rates and RED rental rates are quite a bit different and will probably stay that way for at least a year. Im not saying in any way it cant work, I just don't think its a reality for us on these EPK's and what our clients expect. I would love to put these shows in the RED quality though!
 
All I can say is thank god you've come to your senses.

RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB

As a DP who works on all kinds of productions from talking heads to highend commercials. I would be negligent if I tried to force the RED on some shoots Just because I thought it was "cool" Some times a 900 (hdx,sdx,f) is the right tool for the job all around. The Red isn't going to kill them off. Your making the right choice here. I'm a big Red fanboy, but I live in the real world, where every job is different. I would be doing my clients a disservice if I tried to use a Red on some of my efp jobs. It just isn't right. That being said I have less and less of those jobs now, and for the most part Cinema style production is most of what I do.

_mike
 
camlight said:
Its not a ENG camera or...i have been shooting a testing day for a documentair, 4K for the debt of field and post won't be a lot more expensive because of redcine. I had to use the 19mm steel tubes just to adjust my 15mm one for myn mattebox and followfocus. I worked with the dvrig to carry the load of the camera and it was a delight working al by myself with the debt of field frrom 35.
Click to expand...

Hi Camlight, I'm very happy to see your happy face! It looks like you're doing what I plan on doing to a T. Could you please elaborate on your setup in this pic....weight, and also the dvrig...is this the ENG dvrig setup? How was the shoulder pad? Thanks
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
Well... This is a very good point. And it's on my mind a bit. The arguement here is to get the HPX500 and KEEP the 900 as well. Still working this one around in my brain.

However, my origional idea was to simply offload the footage on set and send them on their way with a small hard drive. Most shoots never turn up more than 1 hour of footage
Jay
Click to expand...

Hi Jay,

My posts are usually very sporadic here due to my high emotional reaction to some of the comments written in the past.

If I may, I have used a P2 store for downloading content to and at the end of the day the client takes it away to hand off to their editors. The P2 Store is returned to me the next day. I normally just bill the client for one days rental.

The P2 store (not Fire Store) In my opinion is a rock solid piece of tech. It's been through hell and back and I have not lost any footage to date. This is a piece of equipment you might consider as part of your camera package; I think its worth it's weight in gold. I hope this helps.

Method
 
Spread the Red

Spread the Red

OK, I'm not selling my Sony D-30/DSR-1 package or my HVX200 package right away but once audio is enabled I plan to use my RedOne for as many of my gigs as I can possibly manage - at 4K. Why? Image quality, figure ground relationships, ability to reframe in post, clean keys, etc.

Yes, I will have to manage focus carefully and long handheld sessions will demand a good shoulder pad, etc. Obviously Curt's motors and the implementation of the SuperGrip will help a ton. Great Blair, so let's say you can pull that off, what about the quick turnaround gigs? I am committed to refining the workflow to the point where the time penalty of having to turn RedCode RAW data into something the client can digest easily is minimal. With the updated FCP supporting native RedCode and the ability of the newer software builds to create QuickTimes in camera this should not be a big deal for FCP based post pipelines.

I truly believe the secret to getting past the producer's mindless demand for a tape delivery is to get the post house involved during the pre-pro. Most editors love the idea of getting a hard drive that can be transferred into their NLE at high speed rather than digitizing tape media. With a sharp DCE on set you should be able to hand off a drive within 30 minutes of a wrap call unless the last couple set ups are far from AC power.
 
Jay... I, too, accept your decision. But just so none of our customers are mislead... audio is in Beta testing now.

Jim
 
I'll invite Jim and Jarred up to Quebec where we'll be shooting our feature...putting it through the rigorous trials of a Canadian winter.
 
I sure hope no one here thinks I'm selling my RED... I just realized that I want MY RED to be a bit more specific in what I build it to do, and use other cameras for different jobs.

Jim, I sure you you get where I was coming from. I had to be honest with myself.. RED has gotten so far under my skin that my initial view of it was perhaps a little TOO emotional and not enough common sense. My realizations will work better for me, and, in the long run, better for my RED.

I hope you understand.. RED has no bigger fan than I... In my opinion!

:)
Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
I still love my RED, and will love it more when I get it!! But, at this time, it's not all things for all people. It is a high end, flexible, image aquisition piece which currently places it's focus on quality and NOT speed.
Click to expand...

It seems like Jay could be making the right decision for his bussiness at least for the immediate future. I too am holding onto my HD gear until I determine I don't need it. I know that there are people who want my services, who don't want to adapt to Red workflow. But his decision to buy more HD gear as well as RED doesn't sit well with me entirely. It's none of my bussiness really, what Jay does, but its worth consideration on a broader level.

I think the speed issue with Red is an interesting one and not so simple as measuring how long it takes to downconvert Redcode raw to standard HD formats. Because as it is Red is the only camera that can immediately take footage from media (CF or drive) and put directly into an FCP timeline with no conversion (we use something new, a proxie). This might even be possible off a CF card. Tapes can't do that, not even P2 can do this in many cases. So in fact its very fast to get started cutting on Red, it might be faster than any other format, and you can do it on a Macbook Pro, in the grass next to your tripod.

Now I understand that for Avid it's currently a difficult situation and that the conforming tools to render a high quality output from a Redcode timeline in FCP are not easily accessible yet.

But isn't this really about a paradigm shift for post production.

In the new paradigm we hold heavy lifting processing tasks (complete decompression and debayering), final look and quality choices until the end when we know exactly what portion of our footage we want to use.

In the old paradigm we, avoid heavy lifting altogether by shooting in a format close to our delivery format and making initial look and quality choices early. We assume equal energy will be expended on all of our footage, so we keep all of it managable.

The "slowness" of RED is experienced mostly when we try to make this new paradigm conform to the old one. No pun intended.

Jay's decision to invest in more HD gear is just that: a continued investment of his time, energy, and capital into the HD paradigm. That investment will limit his investment of time, energy and capital into the 4K RAW paradigm.

In reality it seems Jay's decision is more based on the decisions of his clients than on his own. He's not involved in post (it sounds) and his clients decide their paradigm and thus decide their needs. With looming mortgage payments, who am I to say that the decision to concurrently invest in both doesn't make sense. But if you are like me and your camera is only a tool of your personal labor then you have to take from somewhere to give somewhere else. Does half of two paths equal all or more of one whole path.

Choose wisely Grasshopper.

IBloom

(I freely admit, less than a year ago, I was campaigning for in camera standard formats on RED. That will never happen of course. Lots of learning curve has been climbed since then :shiftyph34r: ).
(The new paradigm is not so new I realize. Call it the new old old paradigm, the film paradigm minus all that physical material.)
 
Ian...

I agree.. There is nothing simple about the decisions I make. RED is my future. It is the dream of who I want to become in the next two years. I did it with my 900 and I expect to do it with RED.. BUT for RIGHT now, I need to be able to shoot HD talking head programs without fear of losing money.

I want to take my time with RED.. It is a love as well as business.. I don't want to focus on speed where RED is concerned.. I want to focus on it's image.. That's what it's all about.

Wait till you see my footage guys... I LOVE making pretty pictures. RED and I will have a lot of fun.. For now I'll use another package to do the heavy lifting until I feel RED is ready for the more mundane work (I hope it never is!)

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
RED has gotten so far under my skin that my initial view of it was perhaps a little TOO emotional and not enough common sense.
Click to expand...

Very interesting realization. I know you're not the only person that feels this way; I'm suffering through the same lust, but will hold on to see if everything works out like I need.

Good luck to you Jay.
 
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