I've made a big decision...

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hello my friends,

Like so many of you, for me, RED represents not only a creative leap, but hopefully a commercial success.

My situation is similar to many of you, and not others. I am mainly an ENG shooter. I owned the AJ-SDX900 and in it's day it was, for a while the premiere "film-like" camera. This got me numerous Music Videos, and even a couple of feature films.. But alas, the 900's "day job" was shooting Talking Heads and Industrials. No doubt 85% of my money came from there.

When I got into RED, I envisioned more music videos and feature work. I still do. But I also noticed the power tap on the camera for my B4 lens, and heard tell of an adaptor for $3,500 that would allow me to shoot using my current equipment.

I was overjoyed, the idea of a camera that could do both!! It was wonderful.
It was not until last week, after I had gotten my loan for the camera, that I had to face facts.

RED may work as an EFP (Or ENG) camera... But not for me.

My budget purchase for RED has been cut in half. I have moved a segment of the funds (As well as the sale of my 900) over to ALSO purchase an HPX2000.

It took me a while to realize it, but in terms of travel, in terms of the abuse I put the 900 through, weight, size, etc... RED is simply not suited for the ENG EFP world as I need it to be. I am not saying it cannot do it.. I am saying it cannot do it as easily as a camera which is designed for this purpose:

Audio, quick turnaround on footage delivery, standard sized ports, a user interface which is industry standard, etc.

I still love my RED, and will love it more when I get it!! But, at this time, it's not all things for all people. It is a high end, flexible, image aquisition piece which currently places it's focus on quality and NOT speed.

Actually this is a good thing as it will take a lot of pressure off my demands of both the camera, AND RED team. The 2000 will serve my corporate and broadcast clients well. From 480 up to 1080. BUT when somthing comes along that requires that beauty, and it matters enough to my cleints, then RED will rule the day.

There are some threads out there right now begging for things we EFP shooters need, and RED is doing their level best to accomidate people. But it's clear their first priority is the "film side" of the camera. I think this is a good choice. It just took me some time to realize where things are vs. where I expected / hoped they would be.

Body, production pack, viewfinder, evf, nikon mount, and flash card reader. This is my RED package. I will build the rest slowly, over time, as money allows. But.. I will have the camera.

I am sharing this because I want to help one or two people out there who may be in my position.. A lot of cameras will start flying out the door at RED soon, an we will be running like crazy to move things in our respective businesses. If some of you are EFP shooters, and hoping to have RED "bridge the gap" so to speak... You may want to look again. Is RED READY to do what you need it to do? Are the designers actively pushing it in the direction you need it to go? Look at what you do to your current cameras in the field right now. Regardless of what you think, you will treat RED no differently. The BODY may be as tough as nails, but a lot of stuff goes with that.

I just got an ARRI MB-20II so I could shoot some photos of it for the group buy.. The first two things I thought were 1: LOOK AT ALL THESE DAMN PARTS.. and 2: THIS THING IS #*(*&# HUGE!!! I also saw the size of those 19mm rods.. My God. No, we won't be in someone's office with THIS stuff. (Yes guys I know there are screw on filters.. Work with me here.. I'm making a point).

Get your RED, LOVE your RED.. SHOOT your RED.. But also, make sure you approach your new love with a very realistic, very honest point of view in regard to what you will do with it. Like Marriage, once you're in... You're in. Of course you can't sell you wife on E-bay if it doesn't work out.. Well I suppose you could.. But that's another topic

Your friend

Jay

 

[Larry McKee]

Jay,

I have a shoot on Monday where we have to ship out the tapes to Toronto as soon as the shoot is over. Don't know yet if they will want DV or BetaCam SP, but I do know one thing. I'm not selling the HVX200 or the BetaCam rig just because my RED arrives. I don't want to work on my motorcycle with just one wrench, no matter how adjustable it might be. For the same reason, I don't want to limit my or my client's choices in how we get a particular job done.

My RED will get plenty of use on TV spots, indies, high end industrial projects, etc. But, a lot of the work I do isn't appropriate for the RED. Just like my 35mm mopic camera isn't appropriate for a lot of the projects I get paid to do. They are all tools in the tool box. The RED will just be my favorite tool.

 

[mikeburton]

Jay,
you make a lot of valid points! Coming from the Bay Area CA I do a lot of corporate and EPK shoots for big name bands ie live concert shoots. I can imagine trying to use RED in a scenario where you are surrounded by thousands of screaming fans right below the stage and let me say, a 7 pound HVX200 weighs a lot after 2 1/2 hours straight compared to the 20 or so pounds of the RED. We are used to having a dedicated DIT on set with the HVX200 workflow but we also shoot 3 cameras. I think everyone would agree that RED would not be preferable in this scenario.
However, there is a lot of commercial work around here as well that RED is perfect for as well as music videos etc. These jobs may not be as common but I am not buying the RED for everyday corporate clients, or our EPK's. I, like many of us out there love movies, and can use this tool for my own projects as well as other folks dream projects. I think one thing everyone loves so much about RED is it can help open doors to other parts of the industry we want to be associated with more often! Is RED the most catered to the everyday business I work in right now? No. But just like many of you I too am taking the leap to pusue my passion, the entire reason I got into this business in the first place. That's how I've sold It to myself so far and I'm sticking to it
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Welcome my friend that's why u need :help: on your shoot. You're depended on assistant expertise, but it's also so much more fun and yes it's harder. Tougher work with heavier more delicate equipment but the images will justify it.

...and your on the lightweight version so far :innocent:

 

[David Battistella]

We are used to having a dedicated DIT on set with the HVX200 workflow but we also shoot 3 cameras. I think everyone would agree that RED would not be preferable in this scenario.

Why?

It sounds like you have the perfect RED workflow in place. With 8GB cards, fixed lenses and shooting at 2K you'd be getting over 20 minutes per card.

I agree that the size of the RED camera makes it more intrusive than some other small format camera's and I also think it will be very hard to make RED work in an ENG (fast turnaround scenario), it's also very easy to point out that nothing in the ENG category can come close to the image quality of RED.

It's the age old sacrifice, do I want quality or quantity?

JA has made some choices based on his business model (the lack of onboard audio alone is enough of a reason to go the way he did) but he is still a RED adopter. He presents a fair opinion, but there will be people who make it work for what ever they need it to do.

David

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

The RED is a digital cinema camera...

 

[Omnius]

The bottom line?

RED RULES

 

[Omnius]

The RED is a digital cinema camera...

It's interesting how a few people might have missed that blatant and obvious fact.

It's not the RED DIGITAL ELECTRONIC NEWS GATHERING CAMERA COMPANY, or the RED ONE DIGITAL ELECTRONIC FIELD PRODUCTION CAMERA COMPANY. . .
although I don't see any valid reason why the gear cannot be optimally used for those purposes, though from the very start it's been about DIGITAL CINEMA, and the Camera is a Digital CINEMA camera.

Now some people are beginning to think this aspect through and come up with these epiphanies?

 

[Joel Kaye]

not the...
RED ONE DIGITAL ELECTRONIC FIELD PRODUCTION CAMERA
Nowsome people are beginning to think this aspect though?

Don't let Gibby hear you say that. RED was intended to be a multiuse camera from the beginning. I think it's evolved more towards digital cinema. People participating from the beginning definitely were trying to suggest design ideas that were as versatile as possible. The reality of the camera "now" is the size is bigger, recording time shorter and workflow slower. The second two items will get better.

I'm looking at the new Sony EX1 as a good alternative camera. Not sure... I'm still liking my JVC HD-100. I'm working on a Doc right now with long interviews and it sure is nice to pop a tape in there and go for an hour at a time and still get really nice images.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Jay,

I see where you sent me a PM a few days ago wanting to talk about a decision. Your thread-opening post reflects that decision. Sorry for not getting back to you for the phone conversation you requested. My schedule has been unbelievable hectic! My apologies...

I respect your decision posted, although to be clear, I don't share your stated opinions on RED One use for EFP production. Me and my crews have been using RED #8 for almost three months now in a wide range of cine-style and EFP style production environments - with equal success in both styles. The position I posted since 2005 on RED forums that RED One would be easily used in EFP (not ENG) environments has been confirmed in real world RED #8 use for almost three months now. I don't think you, or anyone else who hasn't actually used a RED One camera in EFP environments, should jump to conclusions on RED One's utility and flexibility - much less tell me I can't do something I've been successfully doing for almost three months.

To be clear, I still use a wide variety of other EFP camera systems for certain projects. I analyze each project, and ask myself "What is the best camera to use for this project?", then go out and use it. Again, RED #8 has filled the bill for a surprising variety of EFP projects - with the added bonus of being able to easily shoot cinematic opening/closing montages and inbumps/outbumps for those EFP programs.

You gotta do what you feel is right for your own situation and workflow Jay, but I'm also doing the same - and getting remarkable results in the EFP production arena with RED #8.

For those reading this thread who are not familiar with my postings on RED User about RED One and EFP, here are some links:

RED User EFP/ENG for RED forum:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8

EFP and ENG Definitions and Explanations:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

Impressions of #8 thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5495

 

[Ivan G]

Jay I really understand where you're coming from, believe me. But I think I'm still on the track of opening new doors and nothing is going to stop me. You mention you've shot Music Videos and Feature films. I my friend am a wedding videographer looking for a ticket to get in the real world. I know what you're thinking. I'm crazy. I feel as if I am too, but I need to take this plunge in order to tell myself "I told you so". But I'm gonna give it all I got. Including the passion since I held a camera long long time ago. I guess the fear really hit me when I received my Oconnor 2060 and sticks that combined a weight of 26lbs. And of course cost almost more then all my shooting gear combined. You're talking about a guy that shoots with a Sony DSR-250 and shot with a varicam 1 time. Once again I understand what you're saying but like I said, I have to give myself this chance because RED at this price is giving everybody a chance.

 

[Michael Hastings]

ENG style lens is the key.

ENG style lens is the key.

Is RED READY to do what you need it to do? Are the designers actively pushing it in the direction you need it to go? Look at what you do to your current cameras in the field right now. Regardless of what you think, you will treat RED no differently. The BODY may be as tough as nails, but a lot of stuff goes with that.

2: THIS THING IS #*(*&# HUGE!!! I also saw the size of those 19mm rods.. My God. No, we won't be in someone's office with THIS stuff. (Yes guys I know there are screw on filters.. Work with me here.. I'm making a point).

Your friend

Jay

The biggest key to me is that RED really needs to push/persuade Canon or Fujinon to build a 12x or more PL mount lens that covers S35 and that works and is configured like a typical B4 zoom (zoom/iris servo handgrip) without the use of an adapter at $15K-20K or so price point. If we had that, and once we get availability of the RED EVF a lot of the configuration issues become doable in terms of the size and solidity that we are used to in a typical BETACAM-style broadcast camera. I still wish they had given us better options for solid battery mount but that is water under the bridge at this point.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

The right tool for the job is always a good philosophy. I have a 900 as well
and it is still going out on a regular basis. For ENG/EFP guys and production
companies, Red is another tool in the aresnal, I would never think about selling my different packages and trying to go just with the Red.

I am little curious though Jay, For your "day job" clients that need to take
the footage with them how are you going to facilitate that if you only have a
P2 camera?

thanks for sharing your thoughts, always good to here other opinions

 

[Anthony Gratl]

It's interesting how a few people might have missed that blatant and obvious fact.

It's not the RED DIGITAL ELECTRONIC NEWS GATHERING CAMERA COMPANY, or the RED ONE DIGITAL ELECTRONIC FIELD PRODUCTION CAMERA COMPANY. . .
although I don't see any valid reason why the gear cannot be optimally used for those purposes, though from the very start it's been about DIGITAL CINEMA, and the Camera is a Digital CINEMA camera.

Now some people are beginning to think this aspect through and come up with these epiphanies?

Was this post necessary at all Omnius? I actually am appreciative of Jay's frank thread, considering that he's one of the main cheerleaders on this site for all things RED, and the responses have thusfar also been interesting. He's still buying one, so what's the point of your post then? That you're smarter than anyone who reconsiders the parameters of their purchase?

 

[Anthony Gratl]

The biggest key to me is that RED really needs to push/persuade Canon or Fujinon to build a 12x or more PL mount lens that covers S35 and that works and is configured like a typical B4 zoom (zoom/iris servo handgrip) without the use of an adapter at $15K-20K or so price point. If we had that, and once we get availability of the RED EVF a lot of the configuration issues become doable in terms of the size and solidity that we are used to in a typical BETACAM-style broadcast camera. \

The biggest key for me is record time. Everything else I can work around. Nikon still glass, everything set on manual, same as how I shoot HD on the HVX, etc. The key to me is record time. Oh and POST!!!! Avid compatibility please!!

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Guys, (Gibby especially)

Are you under the impression I was telling you all that YOU are wrong to shoot EFP or ENG with RED?

I would respectfully ask that if you are going to comment strongly on my post, please read it more carefully. Let's take a look at the highlites:

RED may work as an EFP (Or ENG) camera... But not for me.
(Notice I said NOT FOR ME.. Did not say for YOU)


RED is simply not suited for the ENG EFP world as I need it to be. I am not saying it cannot do it.. I am saying it cannot do it as easily as a camera which is designed for this purpose
(Notice again, written as my opinion, not as law)

At no time do I say anyone is wrong. Gibby is doing it for three months.. Ok well, he's better than I am.. I cannot shoot EFP/talking heads with a camera that has no onboard audio.

This E-mail was me sharing something personal, not an attack or order for anyone to do anything. Please take the note as it was intended and don't turn it into something else.

I was sharing MY experiences in order to help.. Nothing more.. Don't agree? That's perfectly fine.

Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

The right tool for the job is always a good philosophy. I have a 900 as well
and it is still going out on a regular basis. For ENG/EFP guys and production
companies, Red is another tool in the aresnal, I would never think about selling my different packages and trying to go just with the Red.

I am little curious though Jay, For your "day job" clients that need to take
the footage with them how are you going to facilitate that if you only have a
P2 camera?

thanks for sharing your thoughts, always good to here other opinions

Well... This is a very good point. And it's on my mind a bit. The arguement here is to get the HPX500 and KEEP the 900 as well. Still working this one around in my brain.

However, my origional idea was to simply offload the footage on set and send them on their way with a small hard drive. Most shoots never turn up more than 1 hour of footage
Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

eheheh Opps I got this backwards.. Delete!!

 

[dvpixl]

I would love to see the RED implemented in many forms in Television. As the current state of HD programming isn't that impressive in my opinion. Except for Discovery Channel. But watching a 1080p program shot with probably any of the panny's and sony's doesn't come off as great. its good. but it's not great.
HD should be more. not just a bigger version of SD. That's what it feels like to me.
I encourage all who are in the industry to keep at it with the RED so TV will finally look "good".

 

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

because RED giving everybody a chance.

THIS is like a Trademark Logo for me ..:matrix: