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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It's Time

B

bobbystone

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I've had my RED for a few Months now. Explored it's possibilities. Had a few on-set scares, and made some beautiful images. But the workflow is lacking. It's high time now we had a SOLID workflow. I'm on Apple, so I'm biased there, but this goes for all of us. I'd rather hold off on Scarlet, Epic and all that junk and have a simple, rock-solid perfect way of editing, coloring and finishing. All of the current options are frankly half-baked jerry rigged workarounds that we wouldn't even begin to accept if we weren't all just a little fanboy.. Please, RED, you've given us a fantastic tool. Give us the tools to be able to make it work. We need simplicity of use. We need stability.
 
The Final Cut/Color workflow has a couple of glitches, but I wouldn't call it a "half-baked jerry rigged workaround". And in the professional realm, Scratch has proven to be rock solid in every way. Your flare for drama probably makes you a better filmmaker, but don't exaggerate about problems that aren't really there.
 
I don't think bobby is incorrect in saying this. Frankly, most of the options DO seem like "half-baked jerry rigged workarounds". Everyone cannot afford scratch, and the crimson workflow is shaky and full of puzzling errors at best. Yet there is no clear answer from anyone ,Red Team included, as to how to have a simple, clean workflow without having to rob a Brinks truck and sell your scrotal sack. And that's no exaggeration.
 
What's difficult about transcoding into ProRes (or UC10) and then just editing?
(Most aren't going to film output - and those who are can probably afford to go high end finishing.) This is straight forward and easy. Time consuming, but so is logging/capturing tapes.

Workflow is what you make it...
 
There are so many easy workflow options. Try clipfinder and you can thank me later. What are you basing your statements off of? I know it was frustrating before, but honestly, what workflow are you comparing it to? I'd rather work with RED footage than dvcprohd tape or files, and I'd for sure rather use R3D files than anything tape based. I don't personally own a spirit/telecine system so film is more complicated. What was your other camera system and what was your workflow and we can probably help you in the right direction.
 
Really complex? ie

1. edit with Proxies or proress
2. Conform and grade in color, export DPX to grade (if you want)
3. Back FCP, export or print to tape.

For film out I prefer Crimson to Redcine to DPX.

You have really this kind of workflow or something global like Scratch as Julio said, but think about the money...
 
Seriously, these threads are becoming quite old at best. I don't understand what you feel is lacking to get the job done? I work RED post 5-6 days a week without issues.

- Proxies?
- ProRes QT?
- Uncompressed 8 or 10bit QT

Pick a codec any codec that works with your current setup. Offline edit, send to COLOR via EDL or the Native solution (whatever floats your boat) and then back to FCP to Tape. Or better yet, use Scratch or another tool that your colorist/post-house works with and let them deal with the finishing aspect. RED camera doesn't all of a sudden mean that you should be finishing projects in your home office for optimal results, nor does it make every owner operator a post guru. You CAN finish projects in your home office (don't get me wrong) but with every project there are always going to be little bumps here and there especially when it comes to the ONLINE/Conforming finishing process.

Let me ask you a serious question here, Are you an editor/post supervisor? If so, how have you survived this long with any NLE without having to "work around" certain software bugs or other annoying problems not just RED related?
If not, why are you discrediting the current workflow's which you obviously haven't found a way to optimize possibly because you don't spend enough time behind that wheel? There are more RED projects being shot right now in large scale and small scale environments than you can imagine and all of those productions find ways to work in post without creating threads about the lack of workflow options.

Seriously, I'm not personally trying to bash you, but these kind of rediculous threads pop up every once in a while here and usually it is by people that just don't have the experience in post to begin with.
 
Actually i think the Final Cut to Color workflow is just fantastic.
Still has some glitches around, so I guess the only point would be just when an updated bugfree version of RED FINAL CUT STUDIO 2 will ever come out.
Actually i would be happy to pay for it, so that the Red team could use more resources to sort everything out ... it's nice they're giving it for free, but since we use it on a pro level it would be nice to be able to pay for a "perfect" version ...
 
If you make both the editing software and the camera, it's easier to get things done. However, when you rely on 3rd parties for the editing solutions that's outside of your control. It could be worse.
 
Guys, there are always workarounds. I am also one that has griped quite a few times about the lack of work recently on really good post solutions using Red Cine, Alert, Crimson, Color, etc. There is still not a single conform solution that doesn't have some sort of bug that prevents us from using it.

After trying and failing at good xml-based workflows, we are back to rendering everything to HD after a shoot before editing. This is hardly a "great" solution on long interviews when you'll only use a small piece of a clip.

I'm hoping RED or Hans or Ian will come out with a bulletproof workflow for conforming a sequence using XML. I'd be happy with Color, too, but I think has some ways to go, too, with certain bugs.

(If you're wondering...you can search on some of the issues I've had. Most go unanswered or answered like "oh, that's a limitation of...")
 
That's my point..

That's my point..

You guys are making my point for me. Many of you have mentioned "there are always workarounds" I think it's high time we have solutions without workarounds or glitches or bugs.. That's all I'm saying. The cams have been out long enough in my opinions that it seems like we ought to be a bit further along. There are many different workflows, but NONE of them seems complete yet. Close, but not complete.
 
stuck..

stuck..

Well currently Im stuck on getting an edit with proxies into color. The clips don't end up linked when I get into color. On another project on our other machine that worked flawlessly. And the other continuous issue I have is getting a clean downrez to SD. I also have a clip that has a random 1 second flash of over brightness on the proxies, but not on the R3D file! I know we're on the bleeding edge, but I feel like we need to be getting past the sharpness a bit! All that being said, my clients left today happy as hell and after CC'ing in FCP the footy looked bellismo..
 
Bobby, no problem coming on and asking the questions. That's what the forum is for.

I think the workflow confusion stems from the fact that there are several ways to work with Red footage, and each project you do will have it's unique set of circumstances. Maybe your first project is a commercial with 10 straight cuts and very little grading. The next one might be a music video with hundreds of cuts multi-layered video effects, 4K normal speed and 2K hi-speed. And then you shoot a video that is almost all green-screen and will need to go to 3 different effects houses.

The point is, one workflow may not work for all of these situations. Postproduction supervisors will work to tailor workflows so that the job at hand can be done in the most efficient way with as few workarounds as possible. From acquisition through final mastering, everyone needs to be on the same page of how the footage will get from point A to point Z. If you are a one man shop, you become the shooter, post supervisor, editor, colorist, etc. You have to then do what's necessary to make sure that you have a solid plan in place for getting the job done.

All of the Red workflows that I have tried have some workarounds. But as Mark Toia (Big T) has shown, you can work with proxies and deliver stunning HD video. He is having great success with this. Knowing about apps like Clipfinder can help you come up with low cost workflows.

I highly recommend to everyone that is wondering about workflow to head to Las Vegas on April 22nd if you can. Not to shamelessly plug the Reduser event, but I want to point out that workflow will be covered extensively and you'll have an opportunity to speak with your peers and discuss issues while you have these systems right there in front of you working with Red footage.

Just like P2 and XDCAM the workflows will smooth out over time and it will become much easier to work with. But people are getting work done ever day with Red. It just takes some time to find out what works best for you.
 
These are very valid concerns.. and we know the biggest problem around the workflow issue is mostly due to the lack of education (our fault). We are working on resolving that as we speak, stay tuned to some exciting announcements down the road.

While I'm at it.. I gotta say we really appreciate the time and energy some of our customers have spent to educate everyone who was willing to listen....
 
How about some manuals for Alert! & Company

How about some manuals for Alert! & Company

I think it would be very helpful to have manuals to learn and work with Alert! and Red Cine. I know about the videos, but come on. I'm the product of public schooling and I need some reference. I can't go to youtube and wade through these videos every time I get lost and need help with something.
 
I feel like there have always been workarounds on many different platforms not just red. I am not as experienced as most of you though, so I am not positive.
 
I agree with the need for manuals. I have had my camera since July and I NEVER use red alert cause I just don't get it.
 
fromwimptopimp said:
I agree with the need for manuals. I have had my camera since July and I NEVER use red alert cause I just don't get it.
Click to expand...

What exactly do you need help with? If you ask some specific questions, we might be able to help. Quite honestly, Red Alert is fairly straight forward. Most of the hangups are when choosing which color space to work in, when to use OLPF compensation, detail level, and DRX.
 
Steve-Here is a "workflow" scenario that maybe you can help with...

We shoot about 10 hours of interviews. We want to use a tool (Clipfinder?) to do a quick one-light. Then we edit using Kona to output a "good looking" image on the Plasma to the client sitting in the room. (no choppy proxies just on our computer monitor.)

Okay, we're done and have made our decisions. We'd like to take the XML back into RED Cine and do the full 4k conform with a really good color correction. Then, we want to render the clips out and have them match back into Final Cut Pro for our effects pass and final output.

This seems like a VERY typical scenario for online conforming. As far as I know, it does not currently work, even with the somewhat confusing Crimson workflow using intermediates and all. (There was some file length limitations so it wouldn't even work at all.)

I've tried to a variation on this simple workflow MANY times and it has never worked. Too many edits...must divide you sequence...clips are too long...can't build... There are many issues still.

I've worked on AVID's and FCP since their inception and am comfortable with "work arounds." But I do hope that they make the simple workflow that I gave you above...simple and soon.

Thanks.

Kevin
 
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