It's time to STOP bitching!

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I have a question for FCP users. Are you still using FCP for R3D footage? If so, why? Do you have to transcode? It seems like CS5 is a dream come true for R3D editing.

Well, why do I use FCP for RED?

Final Cut Pro is 49% of the professional editing market.

Avid follows at 22%

The ACE did a user survey, 21% of their users are FCP editors. The rest are all on Avid.

Those facts dominate my thinking on what platform to select. They also dominate my clients thinking.

Interchange.

I regularly work with dozen different editors all over the world.

The only think they have in common- they use FCP. Its convenient if ahead of time we set up the same media drives and folder structure, then we can simply exchange .fcp files.

I occasionally work with editors interactively. I'll be editing one piece of a project and they may be doing the next sequence, then we may need to trade back and forth for review.

I also get clients who regularly bring me things others have edited- and usually screwed up to fix. What was the original done in? Usually FCP.

Client specs

Clients only specify two edit systems to me: Avid and FCP. Well once I was asked for Smoke.

This is probably so they can take it elsewhere if they are unsatisfied with the results.

About half of clients come in and specify the platform they want me to use.

In all these cases RED presents a number of problems, as does using something other than FCP.

My work with Avid is far less frequent, but every time I am asked to deal with Avid its for similar reasons. (I don't like Avid, so I only use it when necessary.)

Delivering these client requirements is part of workflow.

So, what does my RED FCP workflow look like?

When working with Final Cut my preference is to run through all the RED footage, with the DP if it wasn't me, and do a "one light" color correction. Then I do a full debayer transcode to ProRes 422 HQ or ProRes 4444, depending on the job.

So ,yeah transcoding has to happen, or I don't get the performance I demand from my edit system.

Premiere CS5 is a huge step forward in terms of RED workflow.

When clients ask me to edit by default in Premiere and premiere holds at least 20% of the professional editing market, then I promise to bitch when work flow on Camera X isn't ideal with it.

Looking at another type of software, I'm very likely to try and spend a lot of time with After Effects CS5. I really prefer node based interfaces, but CS5 seems to have a lot of cool features. Unlike editorial, I've never ever been asked by a client what software I am using for compositing. People give me a shot, and want me to return the finished shot with any masks or other generated media. I usually use Shake... but no one cares. They just want a finished shot with its elements.

Editing isn't there yet, clients care as much about the process as the product.

I am essentially NOT making a technology argument, but rather a market based argument.

If I am picking ONLY the best technology for RED post, then Premiere CS5 becomes more prominent, but workflow isn't only about working the way you want.

Its about delivering what the client wants or needs- what they are paying for.

 

[Jay Gannon]

That might cost millions per post house. (It isn't just the software people, its the man hours to install and debug the systems, and the hours of editor retraining and so on.) It may also result in the loss of capabilities those post houses depend on. (Premiere won't work with Unity for example.)

$5k is getting to be outside their range.

Of course the reason is that a lot of them bought HDCAM SR decks that are barely getting used, and other similar bad decisions.

I'm sorry but this just doesn't make any sense, HDCAM SR Decks not being used? So we're talking about post houses that don't do broadcast deliverables, a tiny proportion of the post market.
5k is outside their range, so we're talking very small boutique houses within that tiny proportion.

I'm sorry that you've had such a bad experience with post houses but the places your dealing with are not representative of the overall market availability.

I know houses that are converting some of their smaller bays from Dual Boot MC/ProTools to MC/CS5 in order to cater for RED projects. A single feature or broadcast deliverable one off will pay for a Red Rocket and this is also happening, a 1 shot 1 week 1 client ROI on an equipment investment is about as good as you can ask for in this world.

Any DIT/Post Supervisor worth their job title can design a workflow that will work for any current deliverable from Film Out to HDCAM-SR for broadcast.

Not specifically to you but I think a lot of the post confusion comes down to attempted cost savings by not using the services of those who are good at what they do, if post isnt working for you as a DP/Director/Cam Op then hire a DIT/Post Supervisor whos job it is to be good at it. You wouldn't expect your VFX artist to be a gaffer on set so why does everyone suddenly think that they as a great DP/whatever can suddenly run a post workflow and everything that goes along with it.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

I have a question for FCP users. Are you still using FCP for R3D footage? If so, why? Do you have to transcode? It seems like CS5 is a dream come true for R3D editing.

Yes, still using FCP absolutely. For one, we have a great workflow... offline edit with proxies, then selectively transcode for online work. We get a very high quality finish this way, with no ingest time upfront.

As a facility we left Avid behind about 2 years ago, but personally I have worked on FCP for about 10 years now, having been cutting on Avid and DS since '90. While I could see testing CS5 out, I doubt we would switch to it at this stage since our .R3D workflow performs for us.

If I recall correctly Tom, your more of a PC guy than a Mac guy. If that were my platform, I would certainly look at CS5 over other PC based options.

bk

 

[Antony M]

I would like to know in what situations does the Ex1 or Ex3 smoke the Red? I must admit I have never used the EX line of cams so I have merit of comparison.

When you are filming a concert with low light levels, you need 10 cameras and you have a limited budget!

All my concert shoots these days are on EX-1s or EX-3s.

But all my interviews and narrative work are on the Red.

 

[David Battistella]

There is no reason on earth right now you can not hand over a drive with the R3D media, the latest downloads of the RED QT PLUGIN, REDCINE-X and the FCS STUDIO installer.

Any editor or post house worth their salt can make it happen if they have any of the following tools: FCP, AVID, PREMIERE, VEGAS, SMOKE, LUSTRE, BASELIGHT, SCRATCH and probably many more. It's only your job to facilitate this, not to make it happen. If the client does not want to render on the other end then you have to use another tool.

Essentially after reading the whole thread I can say this. The RED "workflow" you want is the one that ARRI ALEXA is promising. RED has already stated that they will provide a prores proxy module, so the Uptopia you seek is in the next version EPIC.

The RED one will never do this.

By the way, we always seem to forget that when we watch a RED file IN QT that is s small miracle in itself. What you are watching is a almost realtime debayer of 4K RAW image data. Try opening a few still files on your computer and working with them compared to JPEGS.

You can't compare it to P2 or XD-CAM, you have to compare it to DALSA or an Si2K or a PHANTOM or tape.

Your argument is like me saying that If I bought a F-900 then I am essentially telling my clients to buy an HDCAM SR VTR. It's not my problem, it's up to them to say they can't finish in that format.

The idea of this thread is a reminder of what we do have, not what we want it to be. If the RED does not support 100% of your shoots, as no camera but P2 and XD-CAMS would then you may have made the wrong purchase choice based on your business, or you have to own multiple cameras.

Your business model is not RED's fault, it' s up to each user to see how RED fits into their business model. If you like the look and all of that but the workflow is such a pain in the ass, then it might be wise to sell the RED, and put a Brevis or something on and HVX 200 and send the files off at the end of teh day to make the clients happy and get the depth of field you want.

REDCODE is the cornerstone of the whole RED program, it is not going anywhere, it will not change, millions of TB of footage has been captured and needs to be backward compatible into the future. It's part of what you bought into as a RED owner.

David

 

[Tim Morten]

The standard has been "online all the time" for rather a while now.

Okay, I think I've found the disconnect. Who in the feature world is "on-line all the time"? Are you talking about ENG?

Where you seem to be missing my point is that adding Premiere to the list of supported NLE's at a post house isn't just buying a copy of the software and running off guns blazing. Its a whole process.

Where you seem to be missing my point is that you don't need to use Premiere. Use MediaComposer if you want to. Use Scratch if you want to. Use Final Cut if you really must. There are functional workflows for all.

You blow it off without much regard, but there are tons of places that work as I laid out. My "post house" is a one man affair... so if I feel like using CS5 for a project, I just get a copy and go.

No, what I blow off is the assertion that all stations need to be on-line. That's just plain wrong.

- Tim

 

[Tim Morten]

Well, why do I use FCP for RED?

Final Cut Pro is 49% of the professional editing market.

Avid follows at 22%

The ACE did a user survey, 21% of their users are FCP editors. The rest are all on Avid.

The latest ACE survey I could find is the 2008 survey, reported here: http://ace-filmeditors.blogspot.com/2009/06/2008-ace-equipment-survey

This indicates 78% Avid, 21% Final Cut

You're thinking of the 2007 SCRI study that's cited on Wikipedia, but there are allegations that those percentages are based on units sold, which Apple definitely leads in (thanks to a bevy of non-professional users).

Either way, this supports your hypothesis that Premiere is not widely used by professional editors. Of course, the same could have been said about Final Cut a very short time ago. Tool use changes as newer/better/cheaper tools are released, as either set of numbers indicates.

Also, MediaComposer 5's native R3D support works great today. So the dominant market leader already has a great workflow for Red. Because the market demanded it.

Yeah, I know: you want on-line. That's another discussion.

- Tim

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Online all the time is both risky and unpractical for larger productions.

For all-in-one short turnaround one man band productions of max 10 minutes length, and maybe concert productions, it may be a good idea. For long form... please don't ask me to insure it...

Offline/online workflows are actually quite practical for a lot of work.
The editor needs to know how to edit, not how to treat the raw files, etc etc etc.

And it's quite impossible to replace a system (I am now talking about a whole storage/backup/broadcast/film system) that is well integrated with an AVID or FCP solution, just because Premiere is good with r3d's.

In my own studio, that may seem logical.

For a big organisation, it's nigh impossible.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Offline/online workflows are actually quite practical for a lot of work.
The editor needs to know how to edit, not how to treat the raw files, etc etc etc.

exactly... use the best format for offline and the optimal format for online/color grading. Just makes sense.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

The latest ACE survey I could find is the 2008 survey, reported here: http://ace-filmeditors.blogspot.com/2009/06/2008-ace-equipment-survey

This indicates 78% Avid, 21% Final Cut

You're thinking of the 2007 SCRI study that's cited on Wikipedia, but there are allegations that those percentages are based on units sold, which Apple definitely leads in (thanks to a bevy of non-professional users).

Either way, this supports your hypothesis that Premiere is not widely used by professional editors. Of course, the same could have been said about Final Cut a very short time ago. Tool use changes as newer/better/cheaper tools are released, as either set of numbers indicates.

Also, MediaComposer 5's native R3D support works great today. So the dominant market leader already has a great workflow for Red. Because the market demanded it.

Yeah, I know: you want on-line. That's another discussion.

- Tim

Those are the same surveys I was referencing... and I think we are reporting the same numbers.

My thinking is that the number of professional editors who are not ACE members far outweighs the number of ACE members.

That said, I think ACE members regularly work on productions with higher demands, hence their bias towards Avid which offers a much more complete workflow than FCP systems.

I also think the Final Cut numbers in the SCRI survey include student purchases. I think those are valid, because if they are buying FCS then they are probably studying film/media creation.

In other words I think both surveys are valid, but like any survey they need thoughtful interpretation. (And no I don't consider my thoughts to be the last word.)

Thinking of the widest installed base of NLE's it wouldn't surprise me to find out its iMovie or Windows Movie Maker or some such, but that isn't what we are talking about.

I suspect the most widely installed professional quality NLE is actually Premiere. Everyone who wants to download a copy of Photoshop ends up "just grabbing" the Adobe Master Suite. I suspect there are millions of non-professional users of the unpaid versions of the Adobe suite that have Premiere installed. I wouldn't trust one of them with my project.

 

[Oliver Peters]

I think you have to be skeptical of any of these numbers. Apple reports over 1 million FCP users, but in this figure, they count every unique license of all FCP, FCE and FCS versions since 1.0. Avid doesn't report their numbers. Remember that in general, PCs outnumber Macs even in the media creation world. Obviously PCs wouldn't be running FCP.

My own back-of-the-napkin estimate would put FCP and MC numbers at about even among folks who are professional editors (as opposed to video enthusiasts). In this group, Premiere Pro is far lower, but it is represented (probably in large numbers) among corporate video folks and even some broadcasters.

Many people own 2 out of 3 if not all 3 NLE applications, so I'm sure there's a lot of overalp among user numbers. I would peg as accurate, the claim that NEW editing software purchases in the last 2-3 years are more FCP than Avid.

- Oliver

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'm sorry but this just doesn't make any sense, HDCAM SR Decks not being used?

Well, to be fair, a lot of post houses bought multiple HDCAM SR decks when they thought HDCAM was not only going to be a delivery format, but also a working and archival format.

What turns out is that they are mostly, almost exclusively, used for delivery. Used in that way, a single HDCAM SR deck would serve even fair size post houses. They aren't paying for themselves. Think about it, how many hours of new broadccast footage do you think most post houses actually output per day?

That's a lot of dead overhead, and its hurting those post houses acquisition of new gear. One underused HDCAM SR deck could pay for two complete RED camera systems and four rockets. A couple of houses I know were about to go on an update spree when the recession hit. Resale has taken a hit too.

Yes its their fault, and has nothing to do with RED. I've never said it was RED's fault, just talking about industry. In this case its a business reality, not a technical one. It isn't about ROI or that sort of thinking, its a cash on hand issue.

I am also getting the sense that all of this may be much more regional/market oriented than I thought originally.

Rocket is a smart investment, with a fast ROI. It's a very RED product, and I love it.

That doesn't mean any post house can snatch one right up because a client walks in the door.

Heck, I don't own one, and its my preferred working solution!

That may have to do with the amount of time I am wasting on REDUSER

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I think you have to be skeptical of any of these numbers. Apple reports over 1 million FCP users, but in this figure, they count every unique license of all FCP, FCE and FCS versions since 1.0. Avid doesn't report their numbers. Remember that in general, PCs outnumber Macs even in the media creation world. Obviously PCs wouldn't be running FCP.

My own back-of-the-napkin estimate would put FCP and MC numbers at about even among folks who are professional editors (as opposed to video enthusiasts). In this group, Premiere Pro is far lower, but it is represented (probably in large numbers) among corporate video folks and even some broadcasters.

Many people own 2 out of 3 if not all 3 NLE applications, so I'm sure there's a lot of overalp among user numbers. I would peg as accurate, the claim that NEW editing software purchases in the last 2-3 years are more FCP than Avid.

- Oliver

That is an interesting take...

I can't accept your "back of the napkin calculations" in place of industry surveys. For one you don't have data to back up your "calculations" but rather anecdotal evidence. (Anecdotal evidence you haven't shared I might point out.)

I think that the rough numbers the SCRI study gave are about right, and the ACE survey is also reflective... but in that case of the organization and its users requirements.

I do think you are right about your guess that most professional users have 2 and sometimes more NLE's available. I disagree about the spread of those systems.

Most people own Avid or FCP, some own both. I know one post house that happily tells me they all three systems: AVID MC, Avid DS and Avid Symphony.

The third NLE however is rather varied. I do know post houses with Quantel and Smoke. I've seen SpeedEdit out there, as well as Edius. Media 100 still has a following. I know no editorial houses that own Premiere seats. The only places that seem to own Premiere are people that use After Effects for compositing.

That "other" NLE system is a crapshoot. It almost always reflects editor preferences and background rather than market requirements.

Of course my limited experience isn't data either... but see how it differs from yours?

Going forward, the technological advantage of CS5 for RED means that when I finally upgrade my Photoshop & Illustrator CS1, I'll make sure and plunk down a little extra to get the master suite and thus, Premiere and After Effects CS5.

I think I am very far from alone in that.

What that does not mean is that I will be using Premiere for most of my work.

If it works as well for me as you all say, then I will be using it for my own projects and for those few clients that want RED but don't care how I post.

Bigger stuff has to stay with Avid or FCP.

When I get my own Rocket, I'll also upgrade to Avid MC 5.

Then I'll try and get MC5 and Rocket to play nice... and hopefully have an excellent solution for my clients. That may result in a whole dedicated system for the Avid seat, but I'm hoping dual boot will suffice.

Of course I am also tempted by Resolve... I am freaking hemorrhaging my imaginary future earnings.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Online all the time is both risky and unpractical for larger productions.

For all-in-one short turnaround one man band productions of max 10 minutes length, and maybe concert productions, it may be a good idea. For long form... please don't ask me to insure it...

Offline/online workflows are actually quite practical for a lot of work.
The editor needs to know how to edit, not how to treat the raw files, etc etc etc.

And it's quite impossible to replace a system (I am now talking about a whole storage/backup/broadcast/film system) that is well integrated with an AVID or FCP solution, just because Premiere is good with r3d's.

In my own studio, that may seem logical.

For a big organisation, it's nigh impossible.

Well we disagree and agree.

We agree about Premiere's use in professional environments and the integration problem.

Where we disagree is online/offline production.

Part of this is that I have not been clear... online and offline are increasingly fluid terms in production.

My view may be quite different from that of others.

Increasingly "on-line" editing simply means editing at full delivery resolution and color space. "Off line" was born of technological limitations.

The main reason on-line used to be so expensive is the massive storage requirements.

Two things have happened to make "on-line all the time" practical.

First media has become cheaper, faster and more reliable. A 1TB drive was recently advertised at $50. A 2TB Hitachi Deskstar was advertised at $129.

Second, codecs have gotten better. I can now online in compressed formats like ProRes 4444 and REDCODE. For many applications online in ProRes 422 HQ is more than accaptable, as the results look better than HDCAM and even match HDCAM SR 440.

That $50 drive (a Western Digital, not that it matters.) is more reliable than an old 100GB SCSI 3 drive, and vastly more reliable than an old 1GB SCSI2 drive. Yes more reliable "server" grade hardware is available. Yes faster hardware is available.

My point is that you can reasonably build a fairly large drive array around even these very cheap drives and have a relatively affordable high capacity, fast, reliable media system. The resulting system will be larger, faster and more reliable than very high end systems from just 3-4 years ago.

For under $1500 I can put 5.4TB online in a 5 disk array capable of recovering from dual drive failure.

That accommodates around 40 hours of RED RC36 footage or ProRes 4444 2K footage. (It turns out those two codecs have roughly the same data rate.)

In perspective, a 3 hour feature with a 12:1 shoot ratio, can store all REDCODE RC36 camera footage and a 3 hour output to ProRes 4444 2K on that system.

The same RAID array could be used with 7.2 TB available, if you can accept only being able to recover from one disk failure. Thats up to 55 hours of mixed RC36 and ProRes 4444 2K media.

You could move up to a 8 Bay RAID, with 8 2TB disks, and have 10 TB with the ability to recover from two drive failures for under $2500. Use the extra space for 2 hours of rendered CG and composites in OpenEXR uncompressed 2k. You can post Lord of the Rings on such a disk system. I wouldn't, but you could.

An LTO Autoloader can be had under $6000. An LTO 5 16 cartridge system can be had from Dell with 30 LTO 5 tapes for around $15000- but that's serious overkill for our little system.

What's uninsurable about that set up? A RAID array, onsite tape backup. One set of tapes stored offsite.

That's enough for working online with that sort of footage, which qualifies as a deliverable.

That is of course the very cheap side of online all the time.

You can certainly spend more and get better performance or more features... and prices are relatively low. About $70,000 can get you a SATA based fibre channel 128TB SAN, Backing that up will run about $60000 with an LTO 5 autoloader.

Its very reasonable to do full online all the time for 2K or 1080p deliverables

So, in order for RED to be an online all the time codec, we need more or less what CS5 offers, but we need that Mercury engine of theirs to support more video cards. Within 3 years integrated video cards will have the compute power to do a full debayer of 4K RED footage and play it at 2K, and 2K displays and SDI interfaces are dirt cheap.

Wider and more robust support of the RED Rocket is probably a good thing. In looking at it (due to this conversation), I think RED would be responsible for developing FCP drivers for Rocket, and they haven't. (That's the model followed by Matrox, AJA and BlackMagic at least, but I don't know how much support they get from Apple.)

With REDCODE you can online 4K from the camera footage, comp it, and deliver 4K... if you so choose.

That gets more expensive, mostly because of 4K monitoring. Last I checked a 4K projector was over $100000 USD. Even at a quarter the price online 4K is obviously cost prohibitive. I'd agree that online quality for a 4K finish is not tenable except in small shops.

I'd be interested to hear about other 4K monitoring solutions... but I don't keep up with them because I don't care. 2K finishes are good enough for 90+% of features, and I haven't worked on anything that critical yet.

 

[Oliver Peters]

" I can't accept your "back of the napkin calculations" in place of industry surveys. For one you don't have data to back up your "calculations" but rather anecdotal evidence. (Anecdotal evidence you haven't shared I might point out.) "

Sure. I understand. However, a 2007 industry survey isn't especially valid either and an ACE survey is centric to LA. Not really valid for the majority of users. There's no point in going into anecdotal evidence, since it involves some not-for-public numbers.

Just look at FCP. If there are 1 million TOTAL users (maybe 1.5 by now), you can eliminate at least half. Likewise, if you figure the Mac/PC spread in the creative community at 50/50, then by default, FCP has to be less than 50% of the NLE market. Granted Avid might not be the other 50%, but I'd bet it's pretty close. My guess is that valid pro users (people who make a living editing) total probably about 400,000 in each camp.

" I know no editorial houses that own Premiere seats. "

I know several, including feature film post folks and broadcasters. I'm generally surprised when I run into these folks, but they are out there.

In any case, my point is to be skeptical of the numbers. However, little of this has anything to do with the original thread.

- Oliver

 

[Cliff Hokanson]

I love my red and slle with it Im the back spoon

 

[Alex Lundquist]

After reading all of this. Its seems to me all of this can be summed up as... "I have round peg... it won't fit in square hole... with the next version of peg it might be more square, but that doesn't help me now. Must fit in square hole now!"

Really... I can understand wanting to use the Red for more then it was, dare I say "intended"? And Due to the huge interest in Red it has attracted a broad range of users. Who I am sure all saw the potential of Red and instantly started dreaming up how they would use it in "their square hole" I know I sure did. But I have to take into account. It is right now... a round peg, and if I want it to fit in that damn square hole, it is going to require me to adopt a specific way of doing things to accomplish this.

Did I completely miss on something or does it sum it up?

In regards to the OP. I agree. Lets stop the bitching... (about how it doesn't fit in the square hole) This doesn't mean we can't constructively talk about changes we would like to see to help it do that. However, my take is that wasn't the intent of this thread.

-Alex Lundquist
Completely Red in the face for my newb comments.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I don't know about squares and circles, but in lay-man's terms:

1) Yes, there are real-time online workflows available today. I can personally vouch for Sony Vegas Pro 9.0e 64-bit and Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 on modern PCs, and it seems Avid MC5 does a stellar job as well.
2) If you are unable to move over FCP, obligated to work with FCP, then you have to accept the limitations. If you really want to complain, you should talk to Apple, insist they close the massive gap that has opened to its competitors.
3) RED recognizes these issues and are clearly investing in development of Proxy modules. H.264 is officially announced, we have heard they are working on ProRes, and there will be no doubt more to come. This solves all problems, really.

Once Proxy modules are here - you can instantly send your clients viewable footage, if such a need arises, and you can natively edit in FCP without further transcoding. If you feel you value quality over speed, then you can fall back on R3Ds as well. Best of all worlds, I can't ask more from RED.

The thread has moved into unrelated tangents, such as the nature of the NLE software market. Personally, I feel it is all an interesting read, albeit off-topic.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Can anyone point out to me how FCP is "better" than Premiere CS5 in terms of its features, etc? Is there something that Premiere is missing, in terms of functionality?

Is FCP tightly integrated with After Effects, Photoshop, etc, like Premiere is?

 

[Jay Gannon]

Well the biggest AVID/FCP pro is facility integration with managed storage and SANs etc
Also I believe (Not my area) that a lot of people have issues with Audio in Premiere.