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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is the redrock M2 adapter any good?

O

orre

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Hi, has anyone worked with the M2 rr 35mm lensadapter?
How good is it compared to p+s minipro35?
Can I put in on my dvx 100 without the rod support system?
 
orre said:
How good is it compared to p+s minipro35?
Can I put in on my dvx 100 without the rod support system?
Click to expand...

From what I've seen, equal if not better.

No, it needs the support system.
 
For the price, the M2 system is a great little tool to achieve a shallow depth of field look in the smaller DV cameras. However, it is definitely not as sophisticated as the P&S kits.

The first thing you'll notice when using one is that it flips the image upside-down. This will force you to either shoot with the camera upside-down, or turn all your monitors upside-down to watch the image, and then flip it in post. RR has addressed this problem by releasing an attachment that will re-flip the image.

The RR is more of a clip-on system, rather than an integral, solid camera adapting system like the P&S. The rods are the only support for the RR. This can easily produce flex between the camera and adapter, which can distort your image, lose your focus, and cause you to constantly reset the mating between the camera and adapter.

The RR uses 35mm STILL camera lenses, not 35mm cinema lenses like the P&S. There's a big difference. As an operator, not a DP, the biggest difference for me is that the still lenses have no gears, so you can't mount a follow focus without an additional adapter. I'm sure a DP would be able to tell you the differences in the glass between the two lens types. This difference will be directly related to the quality of your image.

As I said at the beginning, for the price, the RedRock is a decent little system. And honestly, it's not really fair to compare a system that costs $500 to one that costs $8000+. If I were renting, I'd always go with the P&S. If I were buying, I'd get whatever I could afford.

Best Regards.
 
Thanks guys.
As I understand it you can get the adapter with pl-lensmount.
Do you know how many stops it takes?
 
In my experience the redrock lost around 1 1/3 stops of light.
You can get it with a pl mounts. The lens gears they sell with very well with still lenses and their follow focus unit.

There are also several other 35mm adapter manufacturers like the brevis and the sgpro, all with different pros and cons.
 
orre said:
Hi, has anyone worked with the M2 rr 35mm lensadapter?
Click to expand...

The M2 is an invaluable piece of equipment when shooting anything other than 35mm film.

The DOF it grants you makes it well worth its price tag.

Every job I do that isn't shot on film gets the M2 treatment.

orre said:
How good is it compared to p+s minipro35?
Click to expand...

The P&S costs around $10,000 last time I checked, I think that should answer your question.

orre said:
Can I put in on my dvx 100 without the rod support system?
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Yes you can, if you use the hard mount adapter ring, but I wouldn't recommend it due to the weight it puts on the DVX's front threading.

If you'd like a great example of what the M2 can do, check out Illegal.

http://www.redrockmicro.com/samples.html

And if you like the handheld Camera work of Illegal, remember, I'm available for hire. :bye2:
 
I've used the Red Rock before. Its not too bad, but I hate the soft edges the thing produces. Just kills me. I have seen some really sharp test footage from the SGPro Rev.2 Now thats looking like a sweet adapter, and its actually cheaper than the RR if I remember right. Right now I shoot with an Andromeda DVX100, so my ISO rating is already really low, I thought about buying an adapter, but having a video camera with an ISO rating of about 80 is a little bit crazy for low budget shows, so I'll just rent it when I need it.

EDIT: I'm also not too fond of the added noise the adapter produces in the images, they say it adds that film grain feel, which it does, but I don't always want that much grain on top of footage that is already struggling without any adapters sitting in front of the stock lens.
 
Alexander Nikishin said:
orre said:
How good is it compared to p+s minipro35?
Click to expand...

The P&S costs around $10,000 last time I checked, I think that should answer your question.
Click to expand...

Alexander, do be sure to qualify your response as it is not a simple 1:1 comparison. The RedRock is not simply a P&S with a 90% discount. The differences between the two go far beyond the price.

Just to be clear, I think both are great products and both fit a very defined niche.
 
AftonGrant said:
Alexander, do be sure to qualify your response as it is not a simple 1:1 comparison. The RedRock is not simply a P&S with a 90% discount. The differences between the two go far beyond the price.

Just to be clear, I think both are great products and both fit a very defined niche.
Click to expand...

Then would you mind clarifying the differences between the two since the differences are far and beyond.

Aside from the prism and integrated PL mount ofcourse.

AftonGrant said:
The RR uses 35mm STILL camera lenses, not 35mm cinema lenses like the P&S.
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False, the Redrock has a PL mount for cinema glass.

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl;j...bhyRe34Pa38Ta38Lch90?c=472981&sc=2&category=2

Please qualify your responses as well.
 
I was a Beta tester for the M2 and have been using it with both cine lenses and Nikon glass. I have clients that don't want anything shot without it. I shot a documentary recently in HD with the M2 on my HVX200. After the shoot the director confided, "Larry, I have to tell you. I have been doing this for 20 years and these are the most spectacular images of any project I have ever been associated with."

I have never used the P+S Mini35 so I don't have an opinion on it. My clients are very happy with the results we are getting with the M2, so I haven't bothered to try anything else.
 
Alexander, I picked up a copy of the "Illegal" DVD from Jamey at NAB. Very nice work. I saw some frame grabs over at DVXUSER that were posted as the project was being edited and was hoping I would get to see the finished product. I was not disappointed.

Again, nice work.
 
Alexander Nikishin said:
Then would you mind clarifying the differences between the two since the differences are far and beyond.

Aside from the prism and integrated PL mount ofcourse.

Please qualify your responses as well.
Click to expand...

I think I summarized several of the key differences already in post #3 of this thread. Of course there are many more, some very technical that I don't feel the need to get into.

Yes, the PL option is great. It seems, however, that the SLR mount is the most popular by far. I have yet to work on a project using the M2 with a PL mount. I imagine the $450 cost of the option, as well as the price of the lenses (purchase or rental) is what keeps most consumers with the SLR option.

I still believe comparing the RedRock and the P&S as if they are both marketed to the same demographic is not practical. It's like trying to put a Honda and a Bentley in the same class. They'll both get you to your destination just fine, but they're very different vehicles. I just wanted to make some of those differences clear so a potential consumer can be better informed.
 
Larry McKee said:
Alexander, I picked up a copy of the "Illegal" DVD from Jamey at NAB. Very nice work. I saw some frame grabs over at DVXUSER that were posted as the project was being edited and was hoping I would get to see the finished product. I was not disappointed.

Again, nice work.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the compliment, it comforts me to know that people enjoy my work. :biggrin:
 
AftonGrant said:
I think I summarized several of the key differences already in post #3 of this thread. Of course there are many more, some very technical that I don't feel the need to get into.
Click to expand...

Please do inform me of the techinical differences, I'd really like to to know so that I can, as you put it, "qualify my response".

AftonGrant said:
Yes, the PL option is great. It seems, however, that the SLR mount is the most popular by far. I have yet to work on a project using the M2 with a PL mount. I imagine the $450 cost of the option, as well as the price of the lenses (purchase or rental) is what keeps most consumers with the SLR option.
Click to expand...

.......?

AftonGrant said:
I still believe comparing the RedRock and the P&S as if they are both marketed to the same demographic is not practical. It's like trying to put a Honda and a Bentley in the same class. They'll both get you to your destination just fine, but they're very different vehicles. I just wanted to make some of those differences clear so a potential consumer can be better informed.
Click to expand...

And those $8,000 worth of differences are?
 
Bruce Allen said:
I've seen Illegal - camera work is excellent. Congrats!

I know we have differences of opinion on the HV20... guess I'll have to rent a HVX if I want to work with you? Or wait for your Red ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

lol, keep me away from that cute little 1080p bugger and wer'e ready to shoot! :sarcasm:
 
Alexander Nikishin said:
Please do inform me of the techinical differences, I'd really like to to know so that I can, as you put it, "qualify my response".

And those $8,000 worth of differences are?
Click to expand...

Hey man, I don't know exactly why this has become so heated. Someone originally asked the differences between the RR and the P&S. When you said the difference in price should answer their question, I simply suggested to perhaps explain WHY the two cost as much as they do, as price is not the only difference.

It's really not my obligation to explain every dollar of difference between the two products. I've given a quick overview of my practical experiences with them. The consumer can research as much or as little as they want and spend their money however they like.

If you would like me to provide a real-world explanation of the $8000 difference, I will. Every project I've worked on with the RR (and all have had the SLR mount) has required about 20 minutes extra setup time. This time goes to the initial mounting of the system, prepping either the camera or the monitors to all be used upside-down, mounting lenses with the geared adapter rings, etc. Throughout the day, because of the slight flex in the system, after each shot we had to check and adjust the system as it would often go out of alignment. Also, any lens change required us to move the focus ring from one lens to the next. Granted, all these delays were short individually, but combined, probably totaled 15min by the end of the day. So, end of day, the RR alone had added about 35min of production time.

Take your typical $500,000 music video (which one of them was), with approx $300,000 going towards principal photography, shooting over 2 days for 12 hrs per day. Hourly cost of production is $12,500. Cost per minute is $208. An additional 35 minutes per day costs production $7,291 per day, $14,583 for the two days.

I know these sound like sensational numbers, but I assure you they're not. Production time is extremely expensive. And those delays aren't fabrications, they're true delays I have experienced on more than one set. You can easily say a thousand things might delay production, which is true, but the times I've worked with the RR, there have ALWAYS been small accommodations that had to constantly be made.

Again, I truly do think the RR is a great product. It has found a niche that is perfect for it. I feel the same about the P&S. I do not feel the two niches are the same.

Happy shooting to all!
 
Bottom line is there is not much of a difference. I have used both adapters and would honestly rather use a redrock or cinemek.
The image flip is the only main difference (more light loss)..

people purchased a P+S for 10 grand.. and are now bummed that some college kid can have the same device for under a grand... therefore the guys who spent dime on an adapter are making out to be a "professional" tool.

RR just goes to prove that something doesnt need to cost 10 grand to be professional or worthy. I made my own adapter over a year ago for about 300 bucks.. it looks fantastic!!
 
AftonGrant said:
It has found a niche that is perfect for it. I feel the same about the P&S. I do not feel the two niches are the same.
Click to expand...

What niches? an adapter has no correlation on look or feel (unless ur using a special screen with more grain or no grain...

they both capture the image from the 35mm lens.
 
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