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Mardi_Gras
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Only thing being, the Department of Child Protection vehemently opposes that line of reasoning. They'll simply take your baby away:sad:
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Is the Red One suitable as a wedding videographer's camera?
- Thread starter Desert Rune
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Only thing being, the Department of Child Protection vehemently opposes that line of reasoning. They'll simply take your baby away:sad:
PaulClements
Well-known member
I've told my cousin that when she gets married in about 14 months time I'll record it using the camera. It's a little different than being a wedding videographer I suppose because she's family and it's more of a favour. I'd rather record her wedding and have something amazing for her that she'll love than have a videographer charge her the earth for a video shot on prosumer camcorder... the flip side of this is that because I want that for my cousin, there must be others out there that want the same thing. Who are we to be so snobbish about our equipment to say that it's out of the question.
Of course we all want to go out and make amazing and beautiful looking movies but the first requirement of anyone who's putting a lot into the RedOne ought to be how they will make it pay for them. If you are rich and the camera won't even make a dent in your wallet then all I can say is... you lucky lucky bugger, you'll never need worry about making wedding videos hehe
Of course we all want to go out and make amazing and beautiful looking movies but the first requirement of anyone who's putting a lot into the RedOne ought to be how they will make it pay for them. If you are rich and the camera won't even make a dent in your wallet then all I can say is... you lucky lucky bugger, you'll never need worry about making wedding videos hehe
Tonaci Tran
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Yes, they can do anything they want..they just have to accept the consequences. :blink:
Martin Drew
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Hi Tonaci
What lens/lenses do you plan to use? A wedding is going to be a very fast moving environment and ideally you want quite a zoom ratio so you can shoot wide and tele with one lens. A S16 lens might be a good compromise.
Do you plan to use just one camera? If not and you are pitching towards the high end it might be worth considering teaming up with someone else to offer a multi camera shoot. Also how do you intend to deliver the finished goods? Hddvd? BluRay? or SD on DVD
M
What lens/lenses do you plan to use? A wedding is going to be a very fast moving environment and ideally you want quite a zoom ratio so you can shoot wide and tele with one lens. A S16 lens might be a good compromise.
Do you plan to use just one camera? If not and you are pitching towards the high end it might be worth considering teaming up with someone else to offer a multi camera shoot. Also how do you intend to deliver the finished goods? Hddvd? BluRay? or SD on DVD
M
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Ken Corben
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Is the Red One suitable as a wedding videographer's camera?
This is one of my favorite questions on reduser so far.
Suitable from an economic point of view? I'd say yes if one makes it clear to their clients they are getting a high definition product and the price point is set accordingly. I base this on the initial investment and the Apple Prores work flow.
Suitable as a one person operation? There is no auto focus or auto exposure, not that they should be used anyway. Also if one thinks shooting RED at f22 for an outdoor wedding or shooting ambient light only in a darkly lit church in 4K is a push record only deal then everyone will be unhappy - the client, the company and the entire RED community when the frame grabs hit the net. Ultra high definition means ultra high visibility of mistakes.
I think HD coverage and DVD of weddings sounds like a great niche market. The RED is an ideal solution if you are properly crewed, equipped and practiced in the art of red cinema. IMHO, it's not a one-person EFP operation.
This is one of my favorite questions on reduser so far.
Suitable from an economic point of view? I'd say yes if one makes it clear to their clients they are getting a high definition product and the price point is set accordingly. I base this on the initial investment and the Apple Prores work flow.
Suitable as a one person operation? There is no auto focus or auto exposure, not that they should be used anyway. Also if one thinks shooting RED at f22 for an outdoor wedding or shooting ambient light only in a darkly lit church in 4K is a push record only deal then everyone will be unhappy - the client, the company and the entire RED community when the frame grabs hit the net. Ultra high definition means ultra high visibility of mistakes.
I think HD coverage and DVD of weddings sounds like a great niche market. The RED is an ideal solution if you are properly crewed, equipped and practiced in the art of red cinema. IMHO, it's not a one-person EFP operation.
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Well, I guess if you paid for it you can use it as you wish, but I think RED for weddings is more than just overkill. It’s nonsense. Not that the camera can’t be used for a wedding. You can use IMAX for wedding if one so wants. But I’m all for picking the right toll for the job and RED just isn’t the right one for a wedding video. First there is the problem with DOF. Even if you work with a experienced industry 1stAC I doubt you will be able to keep 100% of the shots in focus and I would be willing to bet money on this. Especially that weddings are normally low light, which indicates you would have to have the lens wide open. Very short DOF. On the top of that a real AC is expensive and you better be charging enough to pay one. ACing is a serious job, so forget about having your nephew doing the job. But quite frankly I don’t know any AC that would take a job like that unless you doubled or tripled their pay because it’s just insane (did I mention unnecessary?).
Secondly there’s the problem that 4k is so sharp that when you show the bride her crispy wedding video she will probably grab your spiffy new RED and hit you on your head with it for making her look so ugly. You realize it will register every single little wrinkle, line and imperfections of her face that she so hardly tried to hide with make up, right?
Those are just a couple of reasons why RED for weddings is not overkill but just nonsense. Now I know you probably think you can solve the above problem with filters (optical or digital) to soften the images but then why going through the trouble of shooting 4k? Just to give you more work? If you are not shooting 4k but 1080p, again why going through the trouble? Shoot with a Canon XL-H1. That camera is the perfect wedding camera in my opinion. You don’t need anything more than that.
But I’m pretty sure somebody will buy a RED somewhere and use it for weddings. At least filmmakers are lucky enough that the camera is just a small piece of the puzzle and lighting and cinematography are the bigger pieces. So no risk of videographers cheapening the look of motion picture by using a RED to try to make a wedding video look like a motion picture. It won’t happen.
Secondly there’s the problem that 4k is so sharp that when you show the bride her crispy wedding video she will probably grab your spiffy new RED and hit you on your head with it for making her look so ugly. You realize it will register every single little wrinkle, line and imperfections of her face that she so hardly tried to hide with make up, right?
Those are just a couple of reasons why RED for weddings is not overkill but just nonsense. Now I know you probably think you can solve the above problem with filters (optical or digital) to soften the images but then why going through the trouble of shooting 4k? Just to give you more work? If you are not shooting 4k but 1080p, again why going through the trouble? Shoot with a Canon XL-H1. That camera is the perfect wedding camera in my opinion. You don’t need anything more than that.
But I’m pretty sure somebody will buy a RED somewhere and use it for weddings. At least filmmakers are lucky enough that the camera is just a small piece of the puzzle and lighting and cinematography are the bigger pieces. So no risk of videographers cheapening the look of motion picture by using a RED to try to make a wedding video look like a motion picture. It won’t happen.
Martin Drew
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I don't think your argument against resolution holds any water. If it did the stills photographers wouldn't have any business.
Ivan G
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It's tough enough with a camera that will automatically adjust the iris, focus, shutter speed, and gain control and record 4-hours 40 minutes with a color lcd to shoot a wedding. I think the camera operator using a RED would lose focus on his/her surroundings due to adjusting the setting constantly.
Tonaci Tran
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I don't see weddings as any different from other types of run and gun situations. It will not doubt be challenging..but the final output will be worth it. Maybe Steve Gibby can chime in on red versatility and manual operation concerns in fast moving environments.
Martin, I have to run..but i will get back to your questions.
Martin, I have to run..but i will get back to your questions.
Steve Gibby
Red Savant
The RED One camera system was designed from day one to be flexible, scalable, and versatile. As I’ve mentioned many times, the biggest challenge for RED One users will be for their skill sets and attitudes to be broad enough to match the capability of RED One. RED One will not be a limited-use camera just for narrative cinema projects.
Here is just a partial list of suggested acquisition resolutions/formats I included in a recent article I wrote about RED One:
RED Target Applications and My Suggested Acquisition Formats
Feature films (2540p, 4K, 2K) Indie films (4K, 2K or 1080p) HDTV programs (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Commercials (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Infomercials (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Stock footage acquisition (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Music videos (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Business videos (2K, 1080p, 720p) HDTV News & promo B-roll (1080p, 720p) POV deck (1080p, 720p, with a cigar cam) POV mount camera (2K, 1080p, 720p) In-water camera with a custom housing (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Aerial handheld and gimbal mounted (2K, 1080p, 720p) Events of various sizes (1080p, 720p) Film festival screenings (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Broadcast teases and promos (2K, 1080p, 720p) Public service announcements (2K, 1080p, 720p) Note: 1080i, if needed, can be extracted from any format RED ONE shoots
For various reasons some RED One users will choose to specialize in a narrow range of production genres. RED One doesn’t place that restriction on them – they place it on themselves. IMO, after three decades of high-level motion media production experience, there has never been as versatile a camera system developed – not even close. So if the camera system has very few genre limiting factors, than what does? Skill sets and attitude of the users, as noted above.
Let’s bring this into the subject matter of this thread: wedding productions. Firstly, I don’t think anyone will be buying a RED One camera system just to do wedding productions. Why buy a Swiss Army Knife, with multiple utility blades, when you only need a simple one-blade knife? That said, resourceful owners/users, who can swallow their pride as “filmmakers” (though RED One will not “film” anything – strange how anachronisms die slowly), and seek every possible way to make a living with their RED One, may occasionally produce a wedding production. Conversely, traditional wedding production guys who buy a RED One camera system, should definitely seek for ways to expand their skill sets and offerings (see my list above), else why buy a RED One? “Bread and butter” production like weddings, business media, etc. can easily be the cash cows that allow small to medium operators and boutique shops to gather enough capital to pursue their true passion, whether that be indie features, television production, or whatever.
Now, how about the technical challenges of wedding production? You’ll notice in my list above, that for “Events of various sizes”, my suggested formats are 1080p and 720p. 2k may be another option if you want to shoot REDCODE RAW. Otherwise its 1080p RGB or 720p RGB. IMO there is no real reason to attempt shooting a wedding in 4k, plus the deeper DOF of 2k, 1080p, or 720p makes focusing on the fly much easier. If the wedding is outdoors, in natural light, most shooting should normally be between f4 and f8, thus DOF tends to be medium to deep. For low light receptions or indoor lowlight situations, then tweaking the ASA (gain) settings on RED One will be necessary. Early reports on RED One point to good low light capability, so boosting the camera up to higher gain setting for low light shooting shouldn’t introduce excessive noise – up to a point. You’ll need to test out the camera to know what that point is in advance of the event.
Lenses, setups, and techniques? First off, it would be optimum to shoot a wedding with more than one RED camera – at least two. One for the safety/cover shot, and the other for the roving, tight creative shots. The safety shot would be on tripod, but would be light enough to pick up and move for additional angles. Audio could be to this camera, via one or two dual channel UHF wireless mic systems (bride, groom, pastor, etc.), or to a dedicated sound guy if the budget would allow. The mobile camera would ideally be on a stabilization unit, with a wide-angle prime or zoom, and be moved smoothly around the subjects. Bride, groom, pastor, etc. would be briefed in advance to simply make the close camera invisible – to ignore it as it flowed around them. The safety camera op would need to dance well with the close camera, framing it out of his/her shots as much as possible. When possible, both cameras would need to get solid b-roll creative shots (wine glasses, flowers against sunsets, people crying, etc.). Ideally the stationary camera would use a RED B4 adapter, with a 2/3” HD ENG zoom lens, with power to the zoom supplied by RED One’s 12 volt power tap. That op would simply need to rack focus manually, while zooming to re-framing with the power zoom. If 2k RC RAW was being shot, then a medium exposure level for the framings would be fine, because the footage would be tweaked in REDCINE before editing. The mobile camera, if on a stabilization unit, could use a lightweight setup: S35mm zoom or 35mm still zoom, RED motor, shoulder brace, Flash, LCD, clip-on matte box. Alternately, if no stabilizer was used, and it was hand/shoulder held, the lens could be a wide B4 2/3” HD ENG zoom, like the Fujinon 13 x 4.5, the EVF, and a 12-volt power tap as described above.
The wedding coverage I described is EFP style production, even though some cine-style lenses and accessories may be used. Welcome to convergence! Hyper-shallow DOF with 2k/1080p/720p shooting as described above is not desired or sought. A “1st AC” is not used – ops rack focus themselves, and 4k is not used. Those of you who have this narrow view of RED One as just a 4k narrative cinema camera, and who may have the attitude that you wouldn’t stoop to doing EFP/ENG style production, need to re-think the production and revenue generating potential of RED One. Take a look at the “EFP and ENG for RED” forum on RED User. It will give you some serious ideas about maximizing the potential of your RED One camera system.
Let’s bring this into the context of Tonaci. He is already a talented director and shooter, albeit on a smaller scale. I’ve seen some of his cine-style work with an HVX200, and it is nice work. He’s reserved a RED One camera and is looking for ways to generate revenue while he pursues his indie feature dreams. He can and will pull off wedding productions using the format/lens/setup parameters I described above. And you know what – he’ll probably get to this indie feature dreams because he isn’t narrow minded, and he’s willing to do whatever it takes to pay for his camera system and finance his dreams.
How do I know all of the above info in this post? I was an invited attendee to the very first RED One camera spec meeting at Oakley in December 2005, I’ve been a contributor of suggestions for the development of RED One to various RED forums for about 18 months now, I have an extensive international background in EFP and cine-style production, and even more important - I’ve kept an open mind and an eagerness to explore new possibilities as technology progressed through the past three decades of my career.
Go get ‘em Tonaci! Use RED One for everything that makes sense and generates the revenue to help you get to your goals – and smile all the way to the bank as you remember those who did you a favor by taking potshots at your flexibility. In several years, when you’re an industry veteran that everyone looks up to, remember your grassroots beginning, and give others some slack as they follow similar paths. I have a shelf full of Emmy Awards and other awards from a long career as a producer, director and cinematographer, and a D-cinema feature and four HDTV series in development - but I’ll swallow my pride and step up to be one of those two cameras for the weddings you’re going to shoot, if I have a gap in my schedule. Give me a call…
Here is just a partial list of suggested acquisition resolutions/formats I included in a recent article I wrote about RED One:
RED Target Applications and My Suggested Acquisition Formats
Feature films (2540p, 4K, 2K) Indie films (4K, 2K or 1080p) HDTV programs (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Commercials (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Infomercials (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Stock footage acquisition (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Music videos (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Business videos (2K, 1080p, 720p) HDTV News & promo B-roll (1080p, 720p) POV deck (1080p, 720p, with a cigar cam) POV mount camera (2K, 1080p, 720p) In-water camera with a custom housing (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Aerial handheld and gimbal mounted (2K, 1080p, 720p) Events of various sizes (1080p, 720p) Film festival screenings (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Broadcast teases and promos (2K, 1080p, 720p) Public service announcements (2K, 1080p, 720p) Note: 1080i, if needed, can be extracted from any format RED ONE shoots
For various reasons some RED One users will choose to specialize in a narrow range of production genres. RED One doesn’t place that restriction on them – they place it on themselves. IMO, after three decades of high-level motion media production experience, there has never been as versatile a camera system developed – not even close. So if the camera system has very few genre limiting factors, than what does? Skill sets and attitude of the users, as noted above.
Let’s bring this into the subject matter of this thread: wedding productions. Firstly, I don’t think anyone will be buying a RED One camera system just to do wedding productions. Why buy a Swiss Army Knife, with multiple utility blades, when you only need a simple one-blade knife? That said, resourceful owners/users, who can swallow their pride as “filmmakers” (though RED One will not “film” anything – strange how anachronisms die slowly), and seek every possible way to make a living with their RED One, may occasionally produce a wedding production. Conversely, traditional wedding production guys who buy a RED One camera system, should definitely seek for ways to expand their skill sets and offerings (see my list above), else why buy a RED One? “Bread and butter” production like weddings, business media, etc. can easily be the cash cows that allow small to medium operators and boutique shops to gather enough capital to pursue their true passion, whether that be indie features, television production, or whatever.
Now, how about the technical challenges of wedding production? You’ll notice in my list above, that for “Events of various sizes”, my suggested formats are 1080p and 720p. 2k may be another option if you want to shoot REDCODE RAW. Otherwise its 1080p RGB or 720p RGB. IMO there is no real reason to attempt shooting a wedding in 4k, plus the deeper DOF of 2k, 1080p, or 720p makes focusing on the fly much easier. If the wedding is outdoors, in natural light, most shooting should normally be between f4 and f8, thus DOF tends to be medium to deep. For low light receptions or indoor lowlight situations, then tweaking the ASA (gain) settings on RED One will be necessary. Early reports on RED One point to good low light capability, so boosting the camera up to higher gain setting for low light shooting shouldn’t introduce excessive noise – up to a point. You’ll need to test out the camera to know what that point is in advance of the event.
Lenses, setups, and techniques? First off, it would be optimum to shoot a wedding with more than one RED camera – at least two. One for the safety/cover shot, and the other for the roving, tight creative shots. The safety shot would be on tripod, but would be light enough to pick up and move for additional angles. Audio could be to this camera, via one or two dual channel UHF wireless mic systems (bride, groom, pastor, etc.), or to a dedicated sound guy if the budget would allow. The mobile camera would ideally be on a stabilization unit, with a wide-angle prime or zoom, and be moved smoothly around the subjects. Bride, groom, pastor, etc. would be briefed in advance to simply make the close camera invisible – to ignore it as it flowed around them. The safety camera op would need to dance well with the close camera, framing it out of his/her shots as much as possible. When possible, both cameras would need to get solid b-roll creative shots (wine glasses, flowers against sunsets, people crying, etc.). Ideally the stationary camera would use a RED B4 adapter, with a 2/3” HD ENG zoom lens, with power to the zoom supplied by RED One’s 12 volt power tap. That op would simply need to rack focus manually, while zooming to re-framing with the power zoom. If 2k RC RAW was being shot, then a medium exposure level for the framings would be fine, because the footage would be tweaked in REDCINE before editing. The mobile camera, if on a stabilization unit, could use a lightweight setup: S35mm zoom or 35mm still zoom, RED motor, shoulder brace, Flash, LCD, clip-on matte box. Alternately, if no stabilizer was used, and it was hand/shoulder held, the lens could be a wide B4 2/3” HD ENG zoom, like the Fujinon 13 x 4.5, the EVF, and a 12-volt power tap as described above.
The wedding coverage I described is EFP style production, even though some cine-style lenses and accessories may be used. Welcome to convergence! Hyper-shallow DOF with 2k/1080p/720p shooting as described above is not desired or sought. A “1st AC” is not used – ops rack focus themselves, and 4k is not used. Those of you who have this narrow view of RED One as just a 4k narrative cinema camera, and who may have the attitude that you wouldn’t stoop to doing EFP/ENG style production, need to re-think the production and revenue generating potential of RED One. Take a look at the “EFP and ENG for RED” forum on RED User. It will give you some serious ideas about maximizing the potential of your RED One camera system.
Let’s bring this into the context of Tonaci. He is already a talented director and shooter, albeit on a smaller scale. I’ve seen some of his cine-style work with an HVX200, and it is nice work. He’s reserved a RED One camera and is looking for ways to generate revenue while he pursues his indie feature dreams. He can and will pull off wedding productions using the format/lens/setup parameters I described above. And you know what – he’ll probably get to this indie feature dreams because he isn’t narrow minded, and he’s willing to do whatever it takes to pay for his camera system and finance his dreams.
How do I know all of the above info in this post? I was an invited attendee to the very first RED One camera spec meeting at Oakley in December 2005, I’ve been a contributor of suggestions for the development of RED One to various RED forums for about 18 months now, I have an extensive international background in EFP and cine-style production, and even more important - I’ve kept an open mind and an eagerness to explore new possibilities as technology progressed through the past three decades of my career.
Go get ‘em Tonaci! Use RED One for everything that makes sense and generates the revenue to help you get to your goals – and smile all the way to the bank as you remember those who did you a favor by taking potshots at your flexibility. In several years, when you’re an industry veteran that everyone looks up to, remember your grassroots beginning, and give others some slack as they follow similar paths. I have a shelf full of Emmy Awards and other awards from a long career as a producer, director and cinematographer, and a D-cinema feature and four HDTV series in development - but I’ll swallow my pride and step up to be one of those two cameras for the weddings you’re going to shoot, if I have a gap in my schedule. Give me a call…
PaulClements
Well-known member
lol... you couldn't just write one or two sentences could you Steve, that's an essay! As always very thorough and very informative. Thanks alot
Steve Gibby
Red Savant
Daniel Reichenbach
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Gibby;31727 Why buy a Swiss Army Knife said:
Martin Drew
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Phew Gibby.. Well put.
M
M
Steve Gibby
Red Savant
Swiss Army Knife is definitely my favorite description for RED One!
I was a member of an ESPN crew covering a world pro snowboarding event at Sas Fe, Switzerland a few years ago. A stunning place in a very beautiful country!
Sorry I missed you at NAB and at Hofbrau on Tuesday night...I got sidetracked with some other business and couldn't come. Hopefully Olaf from Iceland made it to Hofbrau...I told him about it. I talked with Phil ("Tranquil Light") at NAB. Great chap...
Cheers!
Daniel Reichenbach
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Hi next time you call me to come over for a ride in the snow. I'm a montain boy and I'll tell you a secret now: There will be a new ski, this ski core is made of pure swiss alp granit (a stone) and it works, I will shoot a commercial for them with my RED next winter. So, if you are in the area don't hesitade to call +41793085312 and I give you the absolut ultimate feeling of carving....
Steve Gibby
Red Savant
Thanks Martin...
I'm obviously passionate about the flexibility of RED One. I just can't wait to put my RED #8 in motion (and my #700 too!). Rest assured that the testing of #8, and afterwards the real world use of it, will reflect the full range of uses I itemized in my long post. I love shooting, I try to keep an open mind, and keep my ego in check. No project is too big or too small if it interests me. After all these years of shooting, I still get out of bed each morning expecting to learn something new in my craft, and to get better shots than the day before - not to prove anything to anyone, but simply for the self-fulfillment and "rush" that getting some new, good images brings me.
I'll be posting my impressions of my RED cameras, as we travel and shoot with them, here on RED User. Hopefully it will give this forum some insight on real world possibilities for the camera, lenses, and accessories.
Cheers!
Tonaci Tran
Well-known member
Thanks Steve.. super kind words and amazing wisdom as always. As for your offer.. if I ever do a super mega wedding, I am so going to call you (hopefully you won't be already booked). It would be a dream for me to shoot alongside you.
Martin, to add to Steve's already thorough list..
During my first rehearsal using RED, I am going to do some experiments shooting with cine lenses. For the ceremony master shot I will try shooting it in 4k with a cine lens. After the couple is already at the altar.. a super HUGE 4k frame will allow for a multitude of re-framed shots later in post at 1080p. Imagine all the closeups you could get without ever having to stretch the footage higher than 100%. For the preceremony and reception, I am entertaining the idea of possibly doing a run-n-gun with the red 18-50mm and super grip combo. Steve, am I getting too ambitious here? or should I stick with the b4?
Either way, I'll give full reports and analysis of all of my shoots so you will have a good idea of what works and what doesn't.
more thoughts to come.
Martin, to add to Steve's already thorough list..
During my first rehearsal using RED, I am going to do some experiments shooting with cine lenses. For the ceremony master shot I will try shooting it in 4k with a cine lens. After the couple is already at the altar.. a super HUGE 4k frame will allow for a multitude of re-framed shots later in post at 1080p. Imagine all the closeups you could get without ever having to stretch the footage higher than 100%. For the preceremony and reception, I am entertaining the idea of possibly doing a run-n-gun with the red 18-50mm and super grip combo. Steve, am I getting too ambitious here? or should I stick with the b4?
Either way, I'll give full reports and analysis of all of my shoots so you will have a good idea of what works and what doesn't.
more thoughts to come.
Obin Olson
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Keep your HVX for that job. let RED shine on projects of a different nature.
dalen johnson
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thank you for bringing this up...many people dont realize this at all.
If you compress from mini-dv, vhs, etc. it is different than dvcpro 50, etc.
I can only imagine that you will have a cleaner compression with the red, so that your movies online resemble apples clean and prestine movie trailers...not half the junk on youtube.
put garbage in you get garbage out...this is not theory what I posted above, I saw it first hand in my position of New Media Producer for both WebMD (art director) and InTouch Ministries (Producer)
Peace
Dalen