Is the future FF35?

[david farland]

Still photography went digital when differences in picture quality between film & digital became minimal and any differences were outweighed by the ease of the new workflow.
For the TV industry (with its linear outputs and reduced dynamic range) we may be already there….well except for bedding in the file based post workflows.
For the cine industry, the writing is being scribbled all over the wall.

There is always a perfect storm looming as digital technologies swallow up that area of the industry that can't compete with it on quality and cost.
So, will further break throughs come from better pixel technologies for existing s35 sensors or will the sensor be swapped out in favour of the larger FF35 sensor?
Will there be a convergence as suggested with the advent of the DSMC Scarlet and release of the Canon 5D Mk II or will the cinema industry remain s35 for years to come?
The still camera industry with their FF35 sensors is going full throttle towards creating quality cine capable cameras, thus putting pressure on the lower end cine world.

Given that FF35 gives an instant boost in picture quality what are the obstacles?
For the most of the last century investment in s35 technologies, film stock and reduced depth of fields particularly with slower film stocks, were key reasons not to change.
Existing s35 technologies (non lens) and film stock are now either minor or non-existent obstacles.
However, an obvious technology obstacle is the lack of cine-grade FF35 lenses.
The lens industry was very quick to respond with new glass when P&S adapters and 5000 Red camera increased the customer demand driving up PL lens prices.
Quality lens kits that once cost over $100K dollars a couple of years ago could now be bought for $20-30K.
This meant the time required to amortize these lenses was reduced along with the notion that ‘expensive’ lenses are forever.
This has set a precedent that may repeat with the launch of FF35 cine cameras.

Another obstacle has been narrow depth of field. Faster FF35 sensors enabling smaller f-stops and longer lenses means focusing with FF35 sensors will be very similar to s35 cameras.
New Scarlet/Epic focus assists being currently hinted may open up even greater possibilities for the part time focus puller.
The ability to reduce the depth of field and maintain image quality may further enhance the story telling.

No denying with present investments in s35 technologies, it will be viable for some years.
But Red has already announced their future program and it doesn’t include an updated Epic X sensor!
It has announced a range of FF35 bodies (& larger) with electronically coupled FF35 lenses.

Obviously Red will approach the future cautiously…why do I instantly feel nervous saying that!
When they pushed the boundaries and released a quality s35 digital camera (RedOne) into an industry with few s35 digital cameras and minimal PL lenses to support them, they created a demand for the camera and the lenses.
When they release a FF35 Epic onto the market, will the industry act in a similar way?

In the future, is it more likely I'll be holding a s35 digital camera or a FF35 one whilst saying, "For picture quality, this camera beats ever other s35 camera on the planet"?
One thing is sure and that is like the Redone s35 before it, FF35 will swallow up those parts of the industry that can’t compete with its quality and price.

Dave,

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Industry wide trend? Probably we'll be sticking with whatever lenses we already have and which cameras they work best with.

That means most people shooting with s35 sensors via s35 lenses.

and people shooting with ff35 cameras with full aperture anamorphic lenses.

...And some people with specialty optics, like van deimen leica primes, getting something different out of ff35 sensors.

As a whole, i dont think itll make people switch formats too much.

 

[Steve Sanacore]

My feeling is that most established DPs will want to stick with the S35 format. There is an entire world of optics for that format that you would have to abandon in the move to a full size 35 sensor. I've been wondering what optics the FF Epics will have all along. I was thinking the new RED lenses would cover FF35 but I don't think that is the case.

Just my rambling...

 

[J. Eric Camp]

I wouldn't say that the industry responed that quickly to 35 adapters and new PL cameras.
35mm adapters came out in 2002. In 2009 we saw a surge in new PL glass. 7 years turn around is hardly break-neck speed.

Changing the recording format changes everything from glass, filters and matte boxes to tv screens. I sincerely doubt the industry is that fickle / impulsive. Many changes happen in this industry when they have to. When there is no long any excuse to hide behind. There is no reason what so ever to go from s35 to ff35 other than personal choice. The industry will not go through such radical change and great expense for such a choice.

I will probably be most interested in the FF35 Epic, but mostly for the dynamic range not the image area.

 

[Stephen Williams]

For the most of the last century investment in s35 technologies, film stock and reduced depth of fields particularly with slower film stocks, were key reasons not to change. ]

Hi David,

S35 has only became a common format very recently, since the advent of DI. 25 years ago it was occasionally used for optical FX scenes & Titles but little else.

Best,

Stephen

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I can't wait to shoot FF35 and I'm really looking forward to the RED Electronic Lenses for FF35.

But... I plan to keep shooting S35 or similar frame size for the foreseeable future as well. After all, I just bought the RPPs and have a small collection of S35 format glass. I don't foresee any industry wide shift over to FF35. It's just one more format option. One more tool available to the creative professional, but it is not going to just replace S35 or any other existing format. Not anytime soon.

 

[David Rasberry]

I see FF35 motion showing up more in the still photo/motion crossover world. Fashion photography, weddings, etc.
I would love to have an FF35 Epic as an all around multi-purpose camera, but would still shoot most motion other than some specialty stuff at 4k, 4xHD, or 3k just to keep file sizes and post workflow more manageable.

 

[M Most]

S35 has only became a common format very recently, since the advent of DI. 25 years ago it was occasionally used for optical FX scenes & Titles but little else.

That is correct. The idea for the format has been around in various guises for some time, but prior to DI, it was rarely used for first unit because it could not be contact printed (it covers the Academy sound track area).

 

[Tom Lowe]

Is the future ff35? In a word: yes.

It seems very clear to me that cinema is moving to ff35. As we have been discussing here for more than a year, the one major issue is lenses. But that will be addressed by market forces. In the meantime , s35 lenses can be used on monstro ff35 once it comes out. For future glass purchases, though, it would be wise to keep an eye toward full frame options.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Tom, I'm not sure why you have such a hard on for this, but it makes absolutely no senses for 1st unit photography. FX and plates, special venues etc. sure. But the whole industry embracing a format with no purpose for no purpose, I don't see happening.

Just my opinion, as usual probably wrong ;-)

Nick

 

[David Rasberry]

Is the future ff35? In a word: yes.

It seems very clear to me that cinema is moving to ff35.

Given the number of current major films shot on 2/3" one could argue that the trend is in the opposite direction.:biggrin:

 

[Scott C.]

I can see FF as the dominating format in some years ahead. It seems inevitable to me. How long was it after 2k DI became readily available that a demand for 4k scanning and processing developed? I think the same can and will happen once the option to shoot 6k becomes commonplace. It may be slower than the 4k evolution, but as cinemas adopt digital projection, I think the movement will take hold.

What I find most interesting about this is the possibility that this change could happen from the bottom up, beginning with hybrid machines in the consumer space. R1 set the precedent. It took hold with Indies and slowly it is pushing up, into the mainstream. It has been a kind of brute force takeover, really. Red One solidified its place through sheer numbers of units in the marketplace. Scarlet FF and new offerings from Canon, and maybe Nikon could feasibly do the same thing.

Consider this: if a Soccer Mom is shooting 6k with her Rebel in five years, do you think that Hollywood will allow itself to be out done? This is the land of bigger, better and more extravagant. If moms are indeed shooting 6k in 5, big production will be at 12k, minimum. I think FF will be a prerequisite to get the job done.

That is my speculative view from the outside, based largely upon my observations of the influence of Jannard & Co.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Lol, no purpose? How about massive increases in picture quality?

To me, it's as clear as daylight that we are moving to FF35. Obviously, Jim and Red share some of the same notions, considering that Epic FF35 Monstro will be the company's flagship camera.

All of the people saying, "We don't need no stinkin' FF35.. S35 is good enough!" remind me of the folks (many at c.com) who kept telling us that 4K is "not needed" and that 1080 is "good enough." Those people have now all changed their tune and are racing to embrace 4K and even 6K.

If this thread is about predicting future formats, IMHO, it would be very unwise to bet against FF35. atriot:

And yes, obviously FF35 gives me wood. :cheers2:

 

[Nir Shelter]

New technology and revolutions are great for many already discussed reasons. But nothing will change the rule of necessity i.e. choosing the rite tool for the job.

I think that DPs and producers will use FF35 and larger formats providing they serve a purpose that only they can fulfil. By this I mean high end composting, ANA and 3D. Other wise the chips will be used as S35 with in the Epic or other cameras as there is no advantage for shooting FF. The delivery side of the industry is yonks behind what we are producing at low to no budget indi productions needless to say high-end big budgets today.

More so if there will be a surge in glass manufacturing and the market gets flooded with quality lenses. Industry pros will be able to narrow down their choice to exactly what they want for exactly what they need, at affordable prices once again the rite tool for the job.

But even if the broadcast industry manages to miraculously in the next 2 years catch up with what we are shooting now on Red much less soon on Monstro. The difference broadcast between images shot on FF and S35 will be negligible at best. So if anything it will be an advantage for Cine productions to maybe consider larger formats for acquisition. But even then most theatres wont be able to facilitate the full quality of a well-produced digital solid-state film. Very few theatres have now and will have in the near future 4K+ projectors.

I don't think there will necessarily be a massive shift towards FF35.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

To me, it's as clear as daylight that we are moving to FF35. Obviously, Jim and Red share some of the same notions, considering that Epic FF35 Monstro will be the company's flagship camera.

Gotta disagree, Red is releasing their Tier 1 glass as s35 only, then they are advertising what appear to be still-style auto zooms for the FF (which can obviously be used for video as well), but they are primarily pushing s35. If Red agreed with you, they'd have to release the RPPs as FF

 

[Tom Lowe]

RPPs may have been on the drawing boards before the shift to FF35 and DSMC. I'm not saying S35 is dead. I'm saying the future will trend toward FF35. There will still be plenty of times when S35 will be used. The right tool for the right job, yada yada.

Believe me, FF35 Monstro will be the flagship camera.

 

[David Rasberry]

On the presentation side, broadcast isn't going beyond the 1080i/p standards embodied in the ATSC format table for at least 10 years since that changeover is just now being completed. Indeed most over the air stations broadcast as much or more 480p than they do 1080i. Satellite and cable don't want to sacrifice bandwidth and channel count for higher resolution either. For typical home sized screens there is not much if any visible improvement to be gained with higher resolution images.

Except for specialty venues like IMAX, 2k will be the most common theatrical digital release format for at least 5 to 7 years because that is what is being installed in 60% of the theaters now and they won't change them out before normal end of life cycle, they cost too much. If the theaters can wring 10-12 years out of the projectors they will.

Even a move to 4k distribution and 4k DI process will still only be producing about a 9 megapixel frame for standard 1:85 widescreen, less for the other aspect ratios.
If there is "massive improvment" in image quality to be gained from FF35, where will it show up? Greater sensitivity and dynamic range by some margin maybe. But massive increases in resolution reach a rapidly diminishing perceived value return vs production cost above 4k or so.

 

[Andrew Walker]

RPPs may have been on the drawing boards before the shift to FF35 and DSMC. I'm not saying S35 is dead. I'm saying the future will trend toward FF35. There will still be plenty of times when S35 will be used. The right tool for the right job, yada yada.

Believe me, FF35 Monstro will be the flagship camera.

FF35 has already happened before with Vista Vision and that was just to shoot a regular feature. What will really make DPs want to shoot in FF35 is the look. I've seen some 65mm film scanned in at 6K and down rez'ed to 4K and it was the most amazing piece of digital projection I have ever seen...and quite frankly it blew the doors off of some of the best film I've seen.

So I believe that the FF35'ers are moving in the right direction. I'm ready to jump on the FF35 bandwagon.:thumbsup:

 

[Tom Lowe]

David, if you want to see the "massive difference," take some photos with a Canon 50D, and then take the same photos with a 5D Mark II. There is no comparison.

4K distribution is right around the corner. Hasn't AMC just decided to install 4K in all their theaters? That is a sign of what's to come. Not to mention 4K LCD displays. And REDRay.

As for why you would shoot at "above 4K," the answer is clear. Because these are Bayer-pattern cameras that will benefit greatly from the largest downsampling possible. And none of this even takes into account the gains in DR and other issues like ASA/ISO ratings we are likely to see with the big FF35 Monstro sensor.

I'm actually very surprised that there are any FF35 Monstro doubters left in the world.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

David, if you want to see the "massive difference," take some photos with a Canon 50D, and then take the same photos with a 5D Mark II. There is no comparison.

Can you quantify that? I've only shot with crop dslrs, what makes the same photo have "no comparison" on 50D vs 5dmk2? More pixels? dont care that much. Extra FOV? unless you're at the widest wide end, you can easily compensate. Extra shallow DOF? It can be nice, but you usually don't need f1.2 FF. So what is it that is such a massive and overwhelming deal here?