Is T2.0 lens worth it?

[Peter Majtan]

Now imagine the new EF 800mm f/5.6L IS USM (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=154&modelid=16358) - and You get 7040mm!!! Add the EF 2x extender and You can film sexy martian gals on the mars nude beach with Your whooping 14080mm lens!!!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Now imagine the new EF 800mm f/5.6L IS USM (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=154&modelid=16358) - and You get 7040mm!!! Add the EF 2x extender and You can film sexy martian gals on the mars nude beach with Your whooping 14080mm lens!!!

Thought about being voyeuristic and go rear window on the girl on the other side of the courtyard... But with that I will kinda see her carbon molecule structure instead; kind of a downer.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Thought about being voyeuristic and go rear window on the girl on the other side of the courtyard... But with that I will kinda see her carbon molecule structure instead; kind of a downer.

Most gals are more beautiful on the inside then on the outside... :innocent:

 

[Christoffer Glans]

True...

I'm pretty sure there's an 4x extender... that means 28160mm.
It's enough to film through a rip in spacetime and see your own ass in a parallel universe. Think of the possibilities!

 

[chuck colburn]

Rear mount extenders cab be stacked. With the resulting degradation of image quality and lost of stop.

 

[Jun-Dai]

but I still don't know why people would still want interchangeable lenses.

Start by thinking about why people like to have interchangeable lenses on their DSLRs and you should be able to come up with a few reasons why people would like to have interchangeable lenses on an affordable (<$10k), small camcorder. Canon and Nikon's DSLRs would not be where they are if they didn't have interchangeable lenses, even if they used the best and fastest zoom lens ever built into the bodies.

That said, Scarlet is what it is, and rather than see interchangeable lenses on the Scarlet, I'd prefer RED put out a fourth camera that worked like a 16/S16 for ~$10k for a complete package—something that wouldn't necessarily cannibalize the RED One too badly, but would serve a potentially huge market for film students, indie filmmakers, amateurs with too much money, etc.

 

[Chris Newman]

I'd prefer RED put out a fourth camera that worked like a 16/S16 for ~$10k for a complete package

I strongly suspect we will hear an announcement for that next year. So many people on here want that, and that was what many hoped Scarlet would be. I think Jim wanted to focus his energy on making Red a household name first. Scarlet's publicity will lead to increased sales of the fourth and later cameras.

 

[Chris Newman]

...and unfortunately, this belief makes me skeptical that we will see any upgrades to Scarlet, but I like to hope anyway.

 

[Chris Newman]

Start by thinking about why people like to have interchangeable lenses on their DSLRs and you should be able to come up with a few reasons why people would like to have interchangeable lenses

I am glad my DSLR has interchangable lenses because...
1) The standard kit lens sucks, so I can choose my own standard lens
2) I want to put fast primes on sometimes to limit DOF
3) I use a fisheye sometimes
4) You can't buy a 28-200mm+ zoom for DSLRs for a reasonable price, that focuses close, takes sharp, high-contrast pictures, and has a wide aperture.
5) I mount it on my telescope sometimes

I expect Scarlet to have a high-quality lens, and if we get T2.0, only points 2), 3), and 5) should still be valid. Primes are only about one stop faster, I think aftermarket fisheye adapters are probably good enough for what I do (I don't know if 2/3" or 16mm format fisheyes are available anyway), and I can live without puting it on my telescope.

This means that other people must have different lists, so I am curious what other things people would like to use Scarlet for that require exotic lenses.

 

[Alsone]

If You regularly have a need for 1000mm lens - Scarlet is not for You my friend...

1000mm is with a 2x convertor not before ie I was suggesting 500-600mm at the long end of the actual lens.

Not being an a$$ but who says its not for people like me.

Matt Trembly of Red in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD4aTY1Eo0c

Q. Who's this camera targetted at?

Matt "This is a professional consumer camera....with Scarlett we are trying to open up this high performance camera to the world and get it in as many hands as we can so we can see art coming out of as many people as possible."

Q. So you're saying consumer? Do you envisage someone is going to be able to plug this into an i-mac at home and work with the files?

Matt "I wouldn't see why not"


This interview with Ted Schilowitz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UzN3RuOut4&feature=related

Ted "This thing goes all the way up from the soccer mum to the biggest of big producers"

As I explained above, most consumers / amateurs shoot occassional birthdays weddings (close up), but mostly document special events ie horse shows, air shows, car racing, concerts eg grand prixs, holidays etc etc, and then also sports that of are interest to them such surfing, mountain climbing, mountain biking etc etc. Thats why there have been several others on here expressing an interest in sport suitability as well.

In reality, almost every other common consumer / prosumer use other than birthdays and weddings are likely to need long focal lengths to avoid the subjects looking like ants.

This is a trance concert - something a consumer might go to, this is the view from the stage but imagine trying to get decent footage of the dj from out there looking back as either a consumer or prosumer or semi-pro.

This could equally be a classical concert or a rock concert or anything really.

This is the type of event consumer / prosumer cameras need to be able to cut it for and 80mm or even 280mm simply isn't going to cut it at all in the consumer / prosumer world.

..and consumers / prosumers expect a single camera to do ALL of this out of the box, no extras required.

Canon found this with the XH-A1 which is why they gave it a 32-650mm lens as standard..

Non professionals don't have the luxury of a controlled environment, close up subject and the chance to re-shoot a scene.

...and No disrepect but with the tens of millions of $'s Canon throw at market research I think its fairly safe to safe that they have got the basics right in this area.

For those professionals who do studio work, the real answer if the Scarlett is to appeal to all would be to make it interchangeable but to give it a high quality 32-650mm or similar as standard out of the box with the ability for studio professionals to remove this and put a studio lens on.

Also at the end of the day, it can be safely presumed that the reason why Red are aiming this camera as a professional quality consumer camera is because they realise the potential for making money out of such a product and what this would mean for their company. A camera thats only suitable for studio work due its focal length is probably going to sell a few thousand units per year. A camera that has universal appeal as promised by Red and provided it delivers such a package is likely to sell tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of units per year. It doesn't need a genius to do the maths to see where the profits lie and it doesn't take a genius to see that in order to tap into those profits, Red need to get the consumer appeal of this camera right and that means a camera that suitable for all common consumer usages and that in turn means a Canon XH-A1 style focal length.

 

[Chris Newman]

I think most consumers shoot hand-held, so a lens over about 200mm would mean that they would want a good image stabilizer too. We don't know Red's plan for this. Do you shoot 500-1000mm hand-held, or do you typically bring a fluid tripod?

 

[chuck colburn]

How about one of those digital 100x zooms. We all know how swell they look.

 

[Peter Majtan]

1000mm is with a 2x convertor not before ie I was suggesting 500-600mm at the long end of the actual lens.

Even if that was the case You would get 500/8= 62.5mm on the wide end! No one will buy such a camera! Since RED is focused on digital CINEMATOGRAPHY You can rest assured they are more likely to please us, rather then "other" consumers by fitting it with wider-oriented zoom range...

Not being an a$$ but who says its not for people like me.

Based on your posts it sounds like You have constant need for major tele-photo range. I was not trying to "insult" You, or tell You are something "less". Just the simple fact that Scarlet is not targeted for such a use and therefore is not suitable for You. It was meant to be advice - not insult...

As I explained above, most consumers / amateurs shoot occassional birthdays weddings (close up), but mostly document special events ie horse shows, air shows, car racing, concerts eg grand prixs, holidays etc etc, and then also sports that of are interest to them such surfing, mountain climbing, mountain biking etc etc. Thats why there have been several others on here expressing an interest in sport suitability as well.

In reality, almost every other common consumer / prosumer use other than birthdays and weddings are likely to need long focal lengths to avoid the subjects looking like ants.

This is a trance concert - something a consumer might go to, this is the view from the stage but imagine trying to get decent footage of the dj from out there looking back as either a consumer or prosumer or semi-pro.

This could equally be a classical concert or a rock concert or anything really.

This is the type of event consumer / prosumer cameras need to be able to cut it for and 80mm or even 280mm simply isn't going to cut it at all in the consumer / prosumer world.

..and consumers / prosumers expect a single camera to do ALL of this out of the box, no extras required.

Canon found this with the XH-A1 which is why they gave it a 32-650mm lens as standard..

Non professionals don't have the luxury of a controlled environment, close up subject and the chance to re-shoot a scene.

...and No disrepect but with the tens of millions of $'s Canon throw at market research I think its fairly safe to safe that they have got the basics right in this area.

Which is precisely why I have recommended to You the Canon solution!

For those professionals who do studio work, the real answer if the Scarlett is to appeal to all would be to make it interchangeable but to give it a high quality 32-650mm or similar as standard out of the box with the ability for studio professionals to remove this and put a studio lens on.

For the last time: Scarlet is going to be FIXED lens camera.

The "professionals who do studio work" will not buy Scarlet (certainly not as their primary camera) for the same reason - they will go for RED ONE or anything else...

Also at the end of the day, it can be safely presumed that the reason why Red are aiming this camera as a professional quality consumer camera is because they realise the potential for making money out of such a product and what this would mean for their company. A camera thats only suitable for studio work due its focal length is probably going to sell a few thousand units per year. A camera that has universal appeal as promised by Red and provided it delivers such a package is likely to sell tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of units per year. It doesn't need a genius to do the maths to see where the profits lie and it doesn't take a genius to see that in order to tap into those profits, Red need to get the consumer appeal of this camera right and that means a camera that suitable for all common consumer usages and that in turn means a Canon XH-A1 style focal length.

There are tons of cameras to choose from besides RED. But camera targeted at independent filmmakers and the "YouTube Generation" with qualities and features of high-end digital film cameras, but priced at "consumer" level - is rare to come by indeed...

RED is not trying to put the "Top-5" out of business (maybe with the exception of SONY :biggrin: ) and convert the whole consumer world to REDvolution. For RED to be successful their cameras must find their niche in this very busy market...



As I have said in many other threads:

Each RED camera represents different market:

EPIC: 5K CMOS for crisp 4K RGB delivery with S35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses - to battle 65mm and high-end 35mm film productions...

Red One: 4K CMOS for crisp 2K/HD RGB delivery with S35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses (that could be delivered as "soft" 4K) - to battle average 35mm film productions...

Scarlet: 3K CMOS for crisp 2K/HD RGB delivery with 2/3" sensor and fixed lens - to battle low-cost 35mm, HD and S16mm independent film (and video) productions...

Three very different markets...

Now I bet You RED is already thinking about the next step - another camera - why?

The point being is that RED can't fall asleep on roses (or Scarlets :blush: ). The industry WILL respond and (as You know) it takes time from idea to real product in hand. I'll bet anything that RED is already playing around ideas for next cameras.

Average R&D process:

IDEA --> Research & Proof of Concept --> Development of Prototype --> Tuning and Advanced Engineering --> Release Product --> Updates & Tweaks

Red One is now in the last stage of "Updates & Tweaks"
Scarlet & EPIC are somewhere between "Development of Prototype" and "Tuning and Advanced Engineering" stage...
So for sure someone at RED has to be playing around with the "IDEA" and "Research & Proof of Concept"

But then again - what do I know... :whistling:


PS: This summary was "approved" by few RED members as to be representative of where RED stands...

 

[chuck colburn]

Peter,

I agree with most of what you say. The part about an Epic going up against 65mm film might be a stretch though. lo
Plus I like all the pretty colors in your posts.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Peter,

I agree with most of what you say. The part about an Epic going up against 65mm film might be a stretch though. lo
Plus I like all the pretty colors in your posts.

Thanks Chuck!

About Epic - I don't think is a stretch. Once You process the 5K RAW You end up with pristine 4K RGB marvel. Have You seen great 4K projection? And I do not count the Red One's footage at NAB (regardless of how beautiful it might have been)...

I had the pleasure to work on the design for direct computer interface (DVI-D) board for the SONY 4K SXRD projector and actually watched uncompressed Kurosawa's footage (restored at 4K from 6K scans). I think everyone at Sony HQ's private presentation room (including Sony's president and Hisao Kurosawa (Akira's son) and my lowness) was blown away!

Mind You that screen was only about 20', but I had the SXRD hooked up to my custom modified PowerMac QUAD G5 at Sony's R&D facility in Atsugi (about 60 km from Tokyo) on a screen that was about 40'. We have walked to few inch distance of the screen and still were amazed...

Man! Do I miss Japan...


This could easily rival IMAX experience...

 

[chuck colburn]

Peter,

No I have not seen 4K projected ,so your right I don't know the look. Just living in the past I guess where I saw tons of 65mm five perf projected. But that was Showscan which was shot at and projected at 60 f.p.s. That was incredible.

 

[Alsone]

How about one of those digital 100x zooms. We all know how swell they look.

Chuck for the number of posts you've made I'm disappointed at that comment. We both know that 100x zooms are digital not optical zooms and they just stretch the recorded image not zoom it.

Even if that was the case You would get 500/8= 62.5mm on the wide end! No one will buy such a camera! Since RED is focused on digital CINEMATOGRAPHY You can rest assured they are more likely to please us, rather then "other" consumers by fitting it with wider-oriented zoom range...

..and my point is thats not what Ted said at NAB. I wasn't aware soccer mums had cinematography in mind - maybe we're going to see a flood of bend it like Beckham films filled with ants running around a pitch!

Which is precisely why I have recommended to You the Canon solution!

Which is precisely why I wouldn't buy the Canon solution. The Scarlett offers a significant step up in image quality and its that the makes it beyond comparison to the Canon at least in potential performance. Prosumer performance is no longer acceptable to prosumers - they want full professional indy quality and thus the ability to compete with Indy's and studios and potentially sell films.

For the last time: Scarlet is going to be FIXED lens camera.

I know thats the current proposal but wasn't the start of this thread poll about interchangeable lenses? I see 2 poll options about this. I was trying to point out how the interchangeable request could perhaps be used to find common ground between what Professional studio videographers want and what high end consumers / prosumers want as the standard lens would satisfy the latter group if long and the interchangeability would satisfy the needs of the professional level players for extreme wide end solutions.

As I have said in many other threads:

Each RED camera represents different market:

EPIC: 5K CMOS for crisp 4K RGB delivery with S35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses - to battle 65mm and high-end 35mm film productions...

Red One: 4K CMOS for crisp 2K/HD RGB delivery with S35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses (that could be delivered as "soft" 4K) - to battle average 35mm film productions...

Scarlet: 3K CMOS for crisp 2K/HD RGB delivery with 2/3" sensor and fixed lens - to battle low-cost 35mm, HD and S16mm independent film (and video) productions...

Three very different markets...

Which proves my case. There are other options for professionals to choose if they are so offended by the though of having to use a camera that caters to all as per Ted's NAB interview.

Also, the prosumer market falls squarely into the 3rd category as well. This market also seeks full HD broadcast quality now as many in the so called amateur and prosumer markets want the same tools as the professional so they too can produce saleable indy films (production quality allowing). The idea of cut down cameras for prosumers / amateurs / high end consumers is very much last year. These latter categories want nothing less than full professional quality to indy standards which is what makes the Scarlett ideal, focal length allowing.

 

[chuck colburn]

Hmmm...

Could that be why I called it a digital zoom? Excuse me I have to get my tongue removed from my cheek. lol

 

[Peter Majtan]

Chuck for the number of posts you've made I'm disappointed at that comment. We both know that 100x zooms are digital not optical zooms and they just stretch the recorded image not zoom it.

For some the glass is always half empty... :umm:

 

[Peter Majtan]

..and my point is thats not what Ted said at NAB. I wasn't aware soccer mums had cinematography in mind - maybe we're going to see a flood of bend it like Beckahms films filled with ants running around a pitch!

A) Bent it like Beckham was shot on 35mm film
B) Did You actually see the movie?
C) When RED is referring to Soccermums there is always some one who takes it literarily. Mind You - there is a Soccer Mum on this forum that will blow You away with things she shoots...

Which is precisley why I wouldn't buy the Canon solution. The Scarlett offers a significant step up in image quality and its that the makes it beyond comparion to the Canon at least in potential performance.

Canon close up with the 20x L-series lens will actually look better then the "ant" shot from Scarlet cropped and scaled to the same FOV... But You have lost me here - first You prize Canon for how great it is compared to what Scarlet is planing to offer, then You mistake my recommendation for an insult and now You turn Your point of view about Canon 180˚ and say that "Which is precisley why I wouldn't buy the Canon". Lay off the coffee man!

I know thats the current proposal but wasn't the start of this thread poll about interchangeable lenses? I was trying to point out how the interchangeable request could perhaps be used to find common ground between what Professional studio videographers want and what high end consumers / prosumers want as the standard lens would satisfy the latter group if long and the interchangeability would satisfy the needs of the professional level players for extreme wide end solutions.

No it was NOT. Please red Chris's original post carefully and You will find no mention what so ever about interchangeable lenses. He was proposing to change the fixed lens with something else...

Which proves my case. There are other options for professionals to choose if they are so offended by the though of having to use a camera that caters to all as per Ted's NAB interview. Also, the prosumer market falls squarely into the 3rd category as well. This market also seeks full HD broadcast quality now as many in the so called amateur and prosumer markets want the same tools as the professional so they too can produce saleable indy films (production quality allowing). The idea of cut down cameras for prosumers / amateurs / high end consumers is very much last year. These latter categories want nothing less than full professional quality to indy standards.

Do You actually read and understand what other people post? I was specifically referring to Scarlet being the "missing" camera sought by many indies and other "prosumers". I don't see Scarlet being "cut down" in any way - are You out of Your mind? What do You want? 8K uncompressed 180 FPS with 1 to 1000 mm INTERCHANGEABLE lens and runs on Solar power? All this of course for under $ 1000,- USD and button-sized... Let me check our stock room, I have few of these laying around from my last trip to future...