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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is RedCine crippled on purpose?

Miltos Pilalitos

Miltos Pilalitos

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While using crimson to import a Final Cut XML to Redcine today, i was wondering how come that 6 months after it's release we still need a third party product to do what it was essentially the reason RedCine was created for. (by the way... thank you mr. Ian Bloom)

I mean, we have 2 tools to view .r3d files (at least on mac) and it's obvious that one of them is designed to handle multiple shots. Shouldn't it be priority number one to fulfill Redcine's potential?

It could be the most powerful tool in the arsenal of everybody involved with RED imagery. It would smooth out everybody's workflow and it would make the whole RED proposal more attractive to hesitant producers and sceptics. No need to snob them. I know firsthand that to their eyes the RED workflow is incomprehensible and it makes them insecure. They love the footage but still...

Why the new B16-enabled RedCine will not be able to handle XMLs? Ian Bloom found the way in a matter of weeks to create a workaround to force it to do what it was made for but RED can't manage to do it yet?

Is it a matter of strategy? Is it a tool that will be abandoned? Was it a mistake in the first place?

What do you think?
 
I'd like to see any form or RedCine work with B16. Anyone have any idea when it is gonna be available? I am surprised that there isn't more chatter about RC and B16. Maybe there is another thread on this, Where?
 
rpshooter said:
I'd like to see any form or RedCine work with B16. Anyone have any idea when it is gonna be available? I am surprised that there isn't more chatter about RC and B16. Maybe there is another thread on this, Where?
Click to expand...

Redcine will work with B16 but this was not the thread's subject.
 
Have wondered about that my self. Shouldn't be that hard to get Redcine to either recognize individual frame counts of individual shots or conform from a FCP EDL, then again I know very little about software development.

While the Red team are doing a great job and are taking film making out of a secluded rich boys (and girls) game. They are not concentrating on the details of the entire post work flows, but more trying to get the system to achieve their image quality goals.
Guess I, as are many, am still grateful all together for there being an affordable 4, 3 and 2K system and Red know this. All speculations, but I suspect that "those" who developed Redcine are not interested in there being a free and easy to use application that can essential do what a much more expensive system can.
 
Red gives this software away for free thus they are not a software company and dont have the resources to support a "purchased" product. so its sort of a gimme at this point because they have a proprietary codec. once the SDK is out there well may be many many options beyond the free ones that will still fit within everyones price point and wont have to be "Scratcheenie"
Secondly, since Assimilate is very deep with RED it would seem a poor business move to choke out the main biz of Assimilate by RED. esp since RedCine is probably built from the engine or pieces of Scratch (my opinion and many others).
This is not a knock on Assimilate, as a business owner myself it doesn't make any sense to give away a product you are also trying to sell. However there is a middle ground and again after the SDK is out hopefully there will be some lower cost options that can fit into a workflow that doesn't need to be "realtime" but still gives a great result and can be the workhorse the community needs.

All in all RED has triumphed greatly in the face of what it's trying to do.

just my 2sense.
 
I consider RedCine to be a nice freebie but anyone could see it's obviously not going to ever be as capable as Scratch on purpose. And with good reason- it would be killing off the golden egg.

Of course I wouldn't mind simply have RED subsidize Scratch and be done with it. Not sure if they're quite prepared to do that yet and not sure it's really their responsibility.

With RedCine and with other software you can do what you need to get done. If you are a high end house and you truly need what Scratch offers you'll pony up. That simple.

Noah
 
Yes but it's not as if REDCINE needs a lot to be completed. 90% of it is there and waiting the missing link to make everything work.

The core program is obviously based on scratch which is wonderful but this advantage is lost as the software can't communicate with what we need it the most... the editing software!

Why should RED protect Scratch when you can avoid spending $75.000 by spending 190$ for crimson?

Besides... Scratch has advanced grading tools and this is what its selling point is. Redcine needs only to import edit lists so we can export our work to whatever we need to.

Otherwise what is this tool's point since there is also REDALERT? They could just develop REDALERT for windows and be done with it.

REDCINE could be so much more...

Miltos
 
I hope RC becomes the most reliable transcoder of R3D files out there, but because it won`t run on any of my PCs, its hard to tell right now. All I need it to do is let me apply a few curves and then transcode R3Ds to 16bit TIFFs, it`ll get there.
My feeling is that Red would like to concentrate on camera development, and let third parties develop software. That said, they had to offer something up early on to let people know they were serious and so Peter could edit something. I do think they plan/are trying to finish it though, so don`t worry. I`ve read Jarred saying its on its way asap.
I fully intend to stick my head as far in the SDK as I can when it arrives, and if they stop developing RC, then a new solution will be born, called "RonxCine". I shall have an option to only output the first frame of a sequence, repeatedly, for those who miss the original RC, right next to the "display logo on startup then freeze forever" option in preferences (only teasing Red Team!).
Lets also not forget that we`ve been waiting for the codec to mature before RC could really be finished, and that day is hopefully getting close now that b16 is out. I suspect everything Red has done is more susceptable to bugs as a result of the phenomenally quick development time and scale of the R1 project, and the fact they`re trying to create an Apple and Windows and possibly Linux codec at the same time. Bugs tend to get ironed out eventually. Personally I believe they`ve been rushing/pushing forward a little too quickly, and none of us want any of the geeks at Red to burn out! Hopefully they`re all still having fun.
Either that, or... they`re all in a room in front of a bunch of computers hoping they get enough done each day so that Jim will let them have food and water and won`t hit them with his cane, all secretly hoping they`ll be allowed to visit they`re families soon and trying to stay on the good side of Jims "enforcer" Jarred, and the two dogs he stole from that guy in Magnum PI, who sit outside the room :)
 
ronx i understand what you are saying but i totally disagree that RED's concern and top priority should only be the quality of the camera.

RED suggested a completely new way to work. a new video file format and a new concept. I for sure am grateful for all this and i feel as if i jumped 10 years in the future when i shoot and review my RED footage but i also need to work smoothly with that. I need RED's support on that too.

And this is the paradox... RED gives as REDCINE which is like that Lamborghini Reventon without the engine keys. We can enter inside, admire it but cannot start it! only pretend that we are driving it...

At least that's how i feel.
 
RedCine is a free bit of software that works for a lot of people - not brilliantly but it works - ScratchCine and Scratch are purchasable pieces of software that work for people - they are relatively expensive, but on a proper box can do realtime playback and either firstlight or complete grading in 2K.

SDK will be out soon - more people will have access to the tools to improve the workflow.

With that in mind even Scratch - who have been on board from day one, do not yet have a working release for Build 16 because it is that new - so in terms of working software and solutions it's going to be a very even playing field very soon I think.

Redcine may be made redundant in the very near future for professional users - and that's a good thing - for an industry to support the camera there has to be a dollar in it for everybody - and no one makes a dollar from free software.
 
Sure some companies make money from free software, it just depends on the business model. Apple offers lots of best of class free software (or nearly free stuff) to push its hardware, and RED could decide to do the same.

There's no point saying the RED is an affordable 35mm digital camera if you have to spend as much again on software to be able to work with the files it generates. The idea behind RED is high quality digital cinema that independent filmmakers can afford. Paying 20k to 30k for software on a 25k camera is patently absurd.

Once the SDK is released, I can't imagine that someone won't step up to the plate (Apple, Adobe?) with a really affordable solution where I won't have to sell my car and part of the house that I don't yet own to buy software to properly use RED files.
 
I can't think of any software that Apple gives away that comes close to the usability of Red Alert, Red Line or Red Cine (The have software that comes with their hardware - but that's not free.)

They also operate on a scale way beyond Red.

As for affordable 35mm camera systems - your definition of affordable and mine may be very different. Because of RED you can get for under $100K a camera system with accessories, the equivalent of a film lab and scanner (Scratch Cine), a decent NLE, 'reusable' stock, post production finishing tools to get you a DI'd master (via Adobe CS3, or a Mac Pro with Color etc.) one step away from going to a film printers is insane compared to what the equivalent complete pipeline solution would have cost you two years ago.

Red has dropped the barrier of entry significantly - and will do so further with the release of their SDK.

If you are in a hurry you should do what other professionals have done and raised their investment to meet them at the point they are uncomfortable with.

In response to the original posters question the answer is a mixture of yes and no. Redcine is obviously designed to provide a particular solution - and by virtue of where it orginated from and how it's project files work people can engineer things to talk to it and probably get it to do more than was intended (hence Crimson).

I doubt it was intended to be as 'buggy' as it is - but it's underlying architecture program probably wasn't really intended to be tried on almost every semi usable semi modern computer out there.

If I have a professional gig that needs the job I can afford to use a number of tools with Red One - and I'll soon have even more tools that will lower the cost further.

As for affordability for independent film makers - I'm not quite sure what world you live in where independent film makers own their own film labs - it's not the one I live in - but that seems to be what people are asking for when the expect the free RedCine to do all the processing work for them.

I mean you could just shoot your footage, do rough cuts with the proxies on a mac (or go somewhere and get the footage processed for offline), output a DVD copy of your offline to show around and if it's good enough get it funded for theatrical or DVD release knowing you have an amazing 'negative' in your .r3d files - like hundreds of independent film makers have done over the years with 16mm or 35mm?

Except unlike them you don't pay for stock, don't pay for processing, can view the rushes on set and again, don't pay for transferring rushes.

Or, you could buy Scratch Cine - and do a realtime first light grade for what, under $20K, in other words you are an indie and you effectively DO own your own film lab (instead of processing Kodak stock - you process .r3ds).

Not quite sure where - if anywhere - there is a problem with that equation, in terms of affordability for indie film makers. Making 35mm quality productions has never been as affordable as it is with Red One.
 
Miltos Pilalitos said:
While using crimson to import a Final Cut XML to Redcine today, i was wondering how come that 6 months after it's release we still need a third party product to do what it was essentially the reason RedCine was created for. (by the way... thank you mr. Ian Bloom)

I mean, we have 2 tools to view .r3d files (at least on mac) and it's obvious that one of them is designed to handle multiple shots. Shouldn't it be priority number one to fulfill Redcine's potential?

It could be the most powerful tool in the arsenal of everybody involved with RED imagery. It would smooth out everybody's workflow and it would make the whole RED proposal more attractive to hesitant producers and sceptics. No need to snob them. I know firsthand that to their eyes the RED workflow is incomprehensible and it makes them insecure. They love the footage but still...

Why the new B16-enabled RedCine will not be able to handle XMLs? Ian Bloom found the way in a matter of weeks to create a workaround to force it to do what it was made for but RED can't manage to do it yet?

Is it a matter of strategy? Is it a tool that will be abandoned? Was it a mistake in the first place?

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Well said. RedCine is an inch from being useful. Instead it's useless in many respects. Crimson is the only thing keeping it from being deleted from everbodies computer. Bugs like 25 fps playing in 24 hasn't been fixed yet. Redline rendering not supported. And no RSX files to save the color adjustments. You can't save a project and use it on another computer... I mean ... why???? Why all these irritations. It's like constantly being poked with a stick.
 
Caliban you are talking on a theoretical level while i and many other red users have practical problems and that makes me think that you don't have your RED camera yet or you haven't used it on a day to day production environment.

Not everyone will use the camera for going to film out on a 35mm release print. There are other jobs to do with really short deadlines and worrying production companies.

We would all agree that the optimal RED workflow for best image quality is:

1) Shoot
2) Edit
3) Transcode the cut to DPX sequence
4) color grade the DPX sequence

If we all had our own post production houses we could easily buy scratch (which is great) and do steps 3 and 4 fast in one go. But most of us don't own a post production house and the best way to do step 3 is REDCINE.

Only one look at the software and you know that it was made to fill step 3 in the workflow even if nobody told you. Like i said it has 90% of what it needs to do the job with only the 10% mysteriously missing.

None of the editors i am working with understands why they can't import the XML from final cut straight to REDCINE to finish the job. They are not following the RED religion and they only want to get the job done. They see a software that looks professional and they wonder why they can't use it.

Every time a client requests an alternative take or a change in the cut we have to go back to FCP to export a new XML for crimson to then export a new REDCINE XML to redo all the firstlight corrections for all the shots (even if they only wanted one little change) and then finally go to wherever we do the grading to finish the job.

Isn't it crazy since we could easily import the new cut to REDCINE, correct the alternate take and quickly export the video?
 
Got to say though "not making it easy" has kind of paid of for me. Of course I'd rather the process be a strait forward EDL import from FCP to RC. But a few producers have contacted me about using R1. Since they are used to the good ol days of film transfer and tape capture they can't get their heads around the work flow. So I turn in to post format converter, something I like to reflect in an invoice then after.

Who ever thought that being a geek would pay off! Keeping the work flow complicated and cryptic is great, keep up the good work R team!
 
coldpizza said:
Got to say though "not making it easy" has kind of paid of for me. Of course I'd rather the process be a strait forward EDL import from FCP to RC. But a few producers have contacted me about using R1. Since they are used to the good ol days of film transfer and tape capture they can't get their heads around the work flow. So I turn in to post format converter, something I like to reflect in an invoice then after.

Who ever thought that being a geek would pay off! Keeping the work flow complicated and cryptic is great, keep up the good work R team!
Click to expand...

i dont have my red yet and earned money with the workflow....hehe
keep it difficult..hehe
 
I have 2 Reds and only use PCs. I typically record 1 hour with the 2 cameras synced and then process the .r3d files to 1920 X 1080 for editing and Blu-ray and DVD output. It takes about 1 week to process the 2 files. What happens is that RC starts out doing about 1 frame per second and them gradually slows down untill it is running about 3 seconds per frame.
My question is: Are any of you having this happen?

Dave
 
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