Is Red Really 4K?

[ChrisLyon]

I see. I'm behind on compliance standards. And I just looked at them this summer.

I'm not saying that it's easy to make a D-Cinema compliant package. I'm just saying it doesn't take more than a few hundred gigs- maybe more if there are multiple languages but it's just a WAV file. Those aren't much in comparison to the film itself.

I would figure one could finish with RAW and then use that as it's master to then convert to a DCI compliant format for theater screenings and use that same master to create several other sizes and formats for Blu-ray, DVD, etc. This DCI document says they don't wish to govern master specifications, only specifications for theater presentation. A DCI-compliant master can be derived from a RAW format, correct?

 

[M Most]

A DCI-compliant master can be derived from a RAW format, correct?

Only if the RAW format has been high quality debayered, uncompressed, reformatted for a DCI compliant image size, put into XYZ colorspace with color correction having been at least checked in a DCI compliant projection venue for digital projection and 2.6 gamma, recompressed using JPEG2000, encrypted, wrapped in an MXF wrapper, combined with DCI compliant soundtracks and possible subtitle tracks - I suggest you re-read what Laguun has already tried to explain to you. It's clear you don't really know what goes into this, or what studios require as deliverables prior to even making the DCP.

 

[laguun]

Hi Laguun,
Thanks for all the info on 4K online approach.
Is it possible to use Framecycler DI as a conform
and basic grade system then move up to a bigger
system for final grade & film-out?
Like a cheaper mid line system for conform & checking
DPX files at 2 or 4k.
I would be going out to IQ and Pablo.
Mezmo

Hi Mezmo,

yes, you can do that - when you combine framecycler with speedgrade on set. That combination is from (€€€ to lower €€€€).

For conform and grade i would rather use speedgrade HD (€€€€), however. This can also conform in 4k, however monitoring is limited to HD.
The toolkit is pretty complete for a DI system. You work on the 1080p proxy in realtime and render in 4k.

Between these products, for dailies mainly, is speedgrade DDS (lower €€€€).

The framecycler series can playback 2k/4k and 3D, and is focussed at the VFX divisions - they sold hundreds to the likes as esc for matrix II and matrix III etc. Besides that, you will find them as playback servers in venues etc.

What i like very much about their architecture is
a) speedgrade on set - you have the grading/di system on the set for $$$ and can automatically link these looks to the di station back in the studio and
b) they are cross platform, OSX and windows, and speedgrade on set can run on any modern good notebook for €€€
c) they give you trial versions, even of the larger systems (make sure you have a quadro 4500 for speedgrade HD or a nvidia FX for speedgrade on set) to test it out en detail. If you have done colorcorrection & grading before, its pretty easy to master.
d) you can use standard components - add an 8 channel sata controller, some good drives and a nvidia and you are good to go.

At http://www.iridas.com/products/ you can see their products and download the trials.

however, scratch offers more fx - and the systems as mystika and chrome additionally offer editing (this lacks in scratch). But none of them have a $$$ on-set grading product as speedgrade.

discreet is out of the race here however (and thats coming from someone who worked many years for discreet as demo artist, trainer etc). the splitup between smoke and lustre is the main reason. Same for baselight, excellent product, but i am reluctant to spend so much money.

D.I. finishing is (thanks to color,fcp and speedgrade) in the $$$$ market space. Sadly, Apple is "only" 2k and has the weakest grading tool - and a technical issue with 8bit rgb in FCP. However, they will fix that sooner or later. These products, and RED, will bring prices for D.I. down in a very similar way what happened to VFX. Hey, i can remember the good old days when i was payed $$$$ daily for VFX -operating-

Same, i have the impression, is happening to grading , D.I. and online, right now. Its great what the increasing power of the pc (no matter if with linux, osx or windows) made possible.

 

[laguun]

A DCI-compliant master can be derived from a RAW format, correct?

Theoretically, in the future, yes.
As of now, with $.$$$.$$$ budgets for tools, no.

And every step in between (VFX, 3D, titles etc) will probably remain uncompressed, even if these sci-fi products hit the market.

Its feasible, however the market is totally small, and believe me, mastering a DCDM package is nothing you learn within a month or so.

Think about Korean subtitles, several surround audio formats, one of the most sophisticated and complicated copy-protections, converting 3Dlut-basing colorspaces into XYZ-cie, all this encoding for days without no preview, quality assurance on $$$.$$$ worth of different servers (and the manufacturers change the firmware there silently...), having a good $$$.$$$ in 4k projection if you actually want to see what you are doing to start with.

I think the 5.000$ for the 10 TBytes of storage, in comparision to the cheapest DCI mastering tools (~20.000) are the least of the concerns one has to face when delivering to DCI.

 

[ChrisLyon]

Not understanding the terminology is part of my misunderstanding. I suppose it would be best to simply shoot, edit it, give it to the distributor the way they ask for it and then let the distributor mess with it. I won't be the one putting SFX, audio or anything on the picture. I'm shooting and editing and letting the other companies do what they do best. I'm just the source of creative control I suppose.

 

[SalaTar]

laguun,
and your thoughts about CineForm/iridas pair up?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

After ibc, i was under the impression that assimilate, iridas and mystika recommend working with 2k proxy and doing a 4k render at the end? It was really sad that you weren´t in Amsterdam, i had many unanswered question after seeing scratch. I had a good demonstration of the toolkit however, and hey, that really improved, i (and the other employees) liked it very much.

Sadly there was no redcode demonstration at all for us, we came 3 days in a row but the redcode station wasn´t working or did run the wrong software (or whatever).

Are we talking about the RED workflow here, or DPX worfklow, because in SCRATCH, they are different things? SCRATCH doesn't work in proxies. You could call the R3D support in SCRATCH a proxy of sorts, because SCRATCH can decode at 1K, 2K, or 4K, but it is (in my mind) a very different thing.

REDCODE demonstration - sorry you didn't get to see it. I've also been showing it in a few places around LA. We did a great live demo at Torrey's event in Folsom a few weeks ago... several people off this forum were there.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[mezmo]

Hi Laguun,
Thanks for the reply, I was not aware that Speedgarde
HD could conform in 2/4K and I see now why you would
choose it over Framecycler DI as they are about the same price.
Standard Hard Drive components and 1080p proxy displayed realtime on
a HD monitor/projector or LCD would help keep costs down and be OK
for my type low budget feature drama projects.
I'm no colorist or on-line editor so I'd have to con some old friends into helping me drive this thing.
Speedgrade On-set is a great product and a probably essential for
serious digital cinema production.
Pity Red can't load the .look LUT into the camera, maybe sometime soon.
Cheers Mezmo

 

[laguun]

Are we talking about the RED workflow here, or DPX worfklow, because in SCRATCH, they are different things? SCRATCH doesn't work in proxies. You could call the R3D support in SCRATCH a proxy of sorts, because SCRATCH can decode at 1K, 2K, or 4K, but it is (in my mind) a very different thing.

Hi luki,

decode? debayer with all options as in redcine/alert?
or is it also rather like a proxy in RT?
Can we directly record 4k then in realtime - assumed we have 2 4k capable diskarrays?

REDCODE demonstration - sorry you didn't get to see it. I've also been showing it in a few places around LA. We did a great live demo at Torrey's event in Folsom a few weeks ago... several people off this forum were there.

LA, CA, USA

yes, i (and the team) were also really sad that assimilate didn´t show red workflows at ibc, it was one of our main interests.
why didn´t you show it?

 

[Rob Lohman]

decode? debayer with all options as in redcine/alert?

Yes

Can we directly record 4k then in realtime - assumed we have 2 4k capable diskarrays?

Not following you here...

yes, i (and the team) were also really sad that assimilate didn´t show red workflows at ibc, it was one of our main interests.
why didn´t you show it?

They did, but not on the first day or two. There were some technical issues. Later on in the show there were RED workflow presentations!

Offhollywood has also been playing with this setup and reported here on the boards that it kicks ass (their words)...

 

[mezmo]

Hi Rob,
I love the Offhollywood guys, but they seem to be excitable boys,
with all that "film is dead" stuff, and what does "kick ass" mean.
Who's A was K'd?.
I find Laguun's posts here very helpfull, but there seems to be an ongoing
attempt to discredit what he says. I may be wrong with this, wouldn't
be the first time.
I'd love to see some more discussion on other DI post solutions
without Luki or someone from Red jumping on posters heads.
I know Red has a consideration for Scratch and It's DI system which
is by all accounts excellent, but not all of us can afford it and we'll
have to find other solutions. After all this Red camera system is aimed at
emerging filmakers as much as industry Pro's. To me that's what's great
about a forum like this, many different points of view. Please let it flow.
Sorry for the rant. Mezmo

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Hi luki, decode? debayer with all options as in redcine/alert? or is it also rather like a proxy in RT? Can we directly record 4k then in realtime - assumed we have 2 4k capable diskarrays?

Yes. SCRATCH has the same realtime decode/debayer capability as REDCINE.

yes, i (and the team) were also really sad that assimilate didn´t show red workflows at ibc, it was one of our main interests.
why didn´t you show it?

(for the 5th time) Yes, we did show it, starting on day 2. We had technical problems on day 1. Starting on day 2, we were showing it constantly.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[laguun]

not following you here...

That was regarding the 4kbayer->4k rgb in realtime.
I am asking this because we are setting up the pipeline for fullfeatures movies right now, and if scracth does 4kbayer->4krgb in RT and in excellent quality, thats a great thing to feed the VFX dept.

They did, but not on the first day or two. There were some technical issues. Later on in the show there were RED workflow presentations!

Offhollywood has also been playing with this setup and reported here on the boards that it kicks ass (their words)...

The bizarre thing is - we have as always been at ibc for the whole show, and when we came back on day 3 and 4, we were told that it wouldn´t be there.

 

[laguun]

Yes. SCRATCH has the same realtime decode/debayer capability as REDCINE.

I am asking so much en detail because i still don´t understand one thing in particular. Graeme wrote:
Well, there's demosaicing and there's demosaicing. For 2k and below you can rapid extract, which you could think of as a monkey ass simple nearest neighbour "demosaic", but basically you pretend the colours all line up with each other and treat 4k as a 2k image and voila, you're in RGB colour. It's not as noise free as a full demosaic which takes into account surrounding samples and takes care to co-site the resulting RGB, but it's bloody quick.

Therefor i am logically puzzled - if Scratch is doing the -full quality- debayer in real time, when redcine and redalert can´t do exactly that.

I want to understand if scratch uses a lower-quality decode (which would be good to have in 2k) or if the full quality is render, displays running 4k (as dvs does) as i don´t understand how scratch is able to deliver 4k to its displays. Are we talking 2k windowed of 4k then? These are several important questions.

(for the 5th time) Yes, we did show it, starting on day 2. We had technical problems on day 1. Starting on day 2, we were showing it constantly.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Sorry we (and 3 customers) were present on all days and asked if we could see - also on day 3 and 4.

If i am going to buy a product for $$.$$$-$$$.$$$ and am in the selection process, i want to understand what i am buying, and scratch is the remaining candidate which is interesting which i don´t understand in the necessary detail. If scratch can transcode 4k bayer in max quality to 4k rgb, the next logical questions is if this final quality or if that works as in the QT-wrapper in a reduced quality.

I am still undecided between the 5 interesting systems for us (dvs clipster, mystika, matrix chrome, assimilate scratch, iridas speedgrade di). With 3 of them i now exactly understand my options, with 2 of them, including scratch, i have questions remaining.

As we have a fullfeature movie posts in december which we want to do on the new (3hrd) DI system i have to make sure that i can design an excellent streamlined, top-quality workflow - as this decision is cruicial to editing, vfx dept, sound, dailies etc.

And i don´t understand why we have been told on the final days of ibc that redcode wouldn´t be on display. We had a good, long demonstration of scratchs features the very first day of IBC and we asked for redcode the following days and assimilate didn´t show it to us, the clear answer was - also on day 3- "we can´t show redcode. On the Assimilate website are no informations about system requirements for 4k, only for 2k (in the apl section) as well.

I am not suspicious or negative biased. But we tested FCP (only 2k, only 8bit) and then color (only 2k, lots of issues) as the recommended workflow and independent that the FCS package has a excellent price/performance value - it wasn´t the right product for us. So i just wan´t to make sure that i am not missing hidden obstacles in the scratch/red workflow.
So i now have to ask my remaining questions.

As soon i find a little bit more time, i will write these remaining questions as precise as i can.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Therefor i am logically puzzled - if Scratch is doing the -full quality- debayer in real time, when redcine and redalert can´t do exactly that.

Scratch / REDCine have a number of options for both quality and speed of the R3D file decode - you can do everything up to full 4k full on, high quality demosaic, down all the way to the quick methods we're currently using in Quicktime, and even lower quality too should you desire.

Graeme

 

[laguun]

I find Laguun's posts here very helpfull, but there seems to be an ongoing
attempt to discredit what he says. I may be wrong with this, wouldn't
be the first time.

Hi mezmo, thanks.
I don´t have the feeling that someone is discrediting me.

What i don´t get - it is certainly not my mistake when i (and bringing 3 customers) with me can´t get a demo while ibc and why i can´t find a detailed whitepaper (or post) explaining en detail how scratch integrates redcode.

What i clearly dislike is the hidden price-policy of some softwares, i have made no secret out of that. The software-basing DI systems are all CDs - no secret sauce. A software. And they all run on a blend of diskarray/workstation(typical hp or mac pro)/graphics card(typical nvidia)/sdi i/o(typical aja/bluefish/decklink).

When i was working for the dark side of the force (discreet logic) we had the same "catch me if you can policy" - but for software packages i find it an outdated sales model in 2007.

scratch has come a long way, is an very good product, and if its redcode integration is good its among our candiidates to be bought - this year. But sadly i don´t have a scratch-facility in berlin i am aware of to visit and give it a testride, or a delaer.

Might be that i am to sceptic after finding the holes in FCS, but I have to admit that i am puzzled by some responses, however i will try to ask them as precise as possible soon.

*edit - corrected one particular typo - i wrote "shitepaper" instead of whitepaper...

 

[laguun]

Scratch / REDCine have a number of options for both quality and speed of the R3D file decode - you can do everything up to full 4k full on, high quality demosaic, down all the way to the quick methods we're currently using in Quicktime, and even lower quality too should you desire.

Graeme

Hey Graeme, thanks for joining the thread.
My main questions is:
For maximum quality debayer - we don´t have realtime, even with infinite speed disk arrays, as the math is to computing intense -or did i misunderstand something?

Therefore i -suppose- that scratch real time debayer is some kind of a quickreadout with reduced debayer quality (nothing wrong with that - thats really good) and for final output (and precision work as key) one switches to a slow, but high quality.

And the second question is:
does have redcine -quality- advantages over scratch, or can one completely skip RA!/RC when using scratch with R3D?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

That's right - full quality isn't realtime, but we're working on making it faster than it is today.

Lucas can tell you best, but I think that if you have Scratch, you don't need RA! / RC.

Graeme

 

[Lucas Wilson]

... Therefor i am logically puzzled - if Scratch is doing the -full quality- debayer in real time, when redcine and redalert can´t do exactly that.

I want to understand if scratch uses a lower-quality decode (which would be good to have in 2k) or if the full quality is render, displays running 4k (as dvs does) as i don´t understand how scratch is able to deliver 4k to its displays. Are we talking 2k windowed of 4k then? These are several important questions.

SCRATCH (and REDCINE) can decode at 9 different quality settings - 4K, 2K, and 1K at Preview, Medium, and High quality. 4K decode at high quality is not currently realtime, nor probably will it be for awhile.

SCRATCH is able to deliver 4K to displays as either a resize or as a 1-to-1 pixel display. This can be done either via dual-link HD-RGB (at a max res. of 2048 x 1080) or to DVI displays at whatever resolution the graphics card will support.

Sorry we (and 3 customers) were present on all days and asked if we could see - also on day 3 and 4.

If i am going to buy a product for $$.$$$-$$$.$$$ and am in the selection process, i want to understand what i am buying, and scratch is the remaining candidate which is interesting which i don´t understand in the necessary detail. ...

And i don´t understand why we have been told ...

That is because we are assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that if you are trying to do 4K RGB, you are probably working with a systems expert that can work with you to configure something that sustain 1.2GB/s sustained. If you are doing 4K REDCODE - well - it runs on my notebook.

As far as REDCODE support - if you want to see it yourself instead of continuing to flog the completely useless IBC discussion, fly to LA and I will spend an entire day with you showing you SCRATCH and answering any and all questions. If you end up buying SCRATCH, I will personally guarantee that the cost of your roundtrip plane ticket will be deducted from your final price. That applies to coach only. : )

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

What i don´t get - it is certainly not my mistake when i (and bringing 3 customers) with me can´t get a demo while ibc and why i can´t find a detailed shitepaper (or post) explaining en detail how scratch integrates redcode.

If you want to see REDCODE in person and put your questions to rest, fly to LA and I will spend a day with you showing it to you and answering your questions. If you buy SCRATCH, I will personally guarantee that the cost of your plane ticket (coach : ) will be deducted from your final quote.

What i clearly dislike is the hidden price-policy of some softwares, i have made no secret out of that. The software-basing DI systems are all CDs - no secret sauce. A software. And they all run on a blend of diskarray/workstation(typical hp or mac pro)/graphics card(typical nvidia)/sdi i/o(typical aja/bluefish/decklink).

I have delivered more than a dozen quotes to people off this forum who took the time to e-mail me and ask. If you want a quote, you know my e-mail address.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA