Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is RED planning on going out to it's resolution limit?

Stephen Pruitt

Stephen Pruitt

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
3,309
Reaction score
40
Points
48
Website
www.thetreemotionpicture.com
Hi all. . .

. . . this is probably a stupid question. On the RED website, it says that the Mysterium chip will "Record 2540 progressive at up to 30 fps REDCODE RAW. With 4520 X 2540 pixels, Mysterium™ puts pure digital Ultra-High Def in the palm of your hand."

However, it is my impression that 4K is 4096 pixels wide. Will the RED ever go to it's limit of 4.5K????

Thanks much.

Stephen
 
i wanna say that was a RED port feature.
 
"Specs can change at any time". But anything over 4520x2540 would have to be a different model. This is the largest size we could ever go to on the RED ONE.

This comment is not to encourage rampant speculation. Just pointing out a fact that the sensor and system architecture of the RED ONE tops out at 4520.

Jim
 
No need to go higher res than the projectors. There's a lot of installed infrastructure in film projection, but it's only a matter of time. The expense ( and carbon footprint) of making and shipping and wearing out thousands of film prints will drive this conversion, not to mention the quality issues. I read today that most theaters spec out around 700 lines. We'll be in a good position to change that.
 
Jim,

Thanks for 120fps...it really puts this model over the top!

Dave
 
Jannard said:
"Specs can change at any time". But anything over 4520x2540 would have to be a different model. This is the largest size we could ever go to on the RED ONE.

This comment is not to encourage rampant speculation. Just pointing out a fact that the sensor and system architecture of the RED ONE tops out at 4520.

Jim
Click to expand...

I for one am happy with what we have at 4096!

Geez, and I though I was always pushing for more ;)

Thanks for the delicious 4K Jim. Now let's get that workflow nailed:)

M
 
Jannard said:
"Specs can change at any time". But anything over 4520x2540 would have to be a different model. This is the largest size we could ever go to on the RED ONE.

This comment is not to encourage rampant speculation. Just pointing out a fact that the sensor and system architecture of the RED ONE tops out at 4520.

Jim
Click to expand...

Would it be a different model or an upgrade of sensor and boards?
Would you keep the same form factor if you made a new model?

Thanks...8K makes better 4K
 
Well 15/70 IMAX is I think more like 8K and it get's scanned into 4k for post then printed back to 15/70 from that.

8k makes better 4K.

But wouldn't RED 4K make better 15/70..... than 2k F23 upresed to 4k to 15/70.
 
I can think of one good use of the 4520 pixel width, you could have a scope proportion frame at 4520 x 1900 ( approx ) pix with a less than 4k data rate, most lenses would cover it.


www.belladonnathemovie.com
 
Jannard said:
Just pointing out a fact that the sensor and system architecture of the RED ONE tops out at 4520.

Jim
Click to expand...
I think the OP was asking if there were plans to be able to use the entire 4520, as opposed to the 4096 that we get with 4K.
 
Andrew McCarrick said:
You could always use the extra resolution.... it's why people shoot 4k for 2k or HD. You'd shoot 4.5 for 4k. Not to mention in the future Digital Cinema is going to go way above 4k or even 8k; I'm thinking we'll see above 10k within 5 years.
Click to expand...

Andrew,

with all honest respect, but 10k is not likely to happen soon except on some prototypes.

Please have in mind that when you talk about 10k vs. 8k vs. 4k vs. 2k you are growing data two-dimensional, ie. quadric. So 4k for 4 times 2k in size, 8k is already 16 times 2k in size.

Have you had chance to see NHK's (in cooperation with JVC & Micron) Ultra-High-Def, planned for something like 2015 or 2020 to start as public test?

Its amazing 32 times more than current HD 1080/30p standart. It delivers unbelievable stunning 7680x4320y60p, so 16 times the area of current HD 1080p and doubled frame rate. Accompanied by 22.8 sound it makes any kind of IMAX on "film" obsolete. You got the feeling its not film, its a window... They showed a bunch of japanese half-naked guys moving a dragon figure or the like. I imagine like 1000 poeple visible at once in that shot. And you could have identified everybody by his face, easily.

The problem was, that the cpu power behind all this requires two full 19" racks of encoders and decoders, so they run essentially 16 seperate HD streams at 1080/60p in parallel.

Its not that I don't think it will ever happen with 10k or something like that, its just "within 5 years" might be a bit too optimistic from the current experience with Moore's law.

But hey, if it happens in 5 years, I am in :)

Axel
 
Jannard said:
"Specs can change at any time". But anything over 4520x2540 would have to be a different model. This is the largest size we could ever go to on the RED ONE.

This comment is not to encourage rampant speculation. Just pointing out a fact that the sensor and system architecture of the RED ONE tops out at 4520.

Jim
Click to expand...





would REDCODES integrity be viable for larger pixel array ?
 
Jim, why not custom resolution [high speed] modes???

Jim, why not custom resolution [high speed] modes???

Jannard said:
"Specs can change at any time". But anything over 4520x2540 would have to be a different model. This is the largest size we could ever go to on the RED ONE.

This comment is not to encourage rampant speculation. Just pointing out a fact that the sensor and system architecture of the RED ONE tops out at 4520.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

as we experience some flood of new formats these days (no worry, I like them) but so many applications having different requirements, what about implementing a real custom resolution mode?

Right now we all know that there is a fixed maximum pixel bandwidth of the Mysterium sensor, which I'd calculate as roughly:

4520x2540y60Hz as physical limit, ie.:

4520 * 2540 * 60 = 688,848,000 pixel/second.


The next limit is the REDCODE encoder limit, which currently peaks at 3K 2:1 60Hz as it appears to me:

3072 * 1536 * 60 = 283,115,520 pixel/second

which apparently equals 4K 16:9 30Hz:

4096 * 2304 * 30 = 283,115,520 pixels/second

while 2K 2:1 120Hz is less data, as we can see here:

2048 * 1024 * 120 = 251,658,240 pixel/second


Finally we have the line speed limit, which is:

2540 lines @ 60 Hz = 152,400 lines/second from theory,

or:

1024 lines @ 120 Hz = 122,880 lines/second from practice.


I'd summarize:

1. Limitation: Sensor pixel speed:
4520 * 2540 * 60 = 688,848,000 pixel/second.

2. Limitation: Codec pixel speed:
3072 * 1536 * 60 = 283,115,520 pixel/second (hopefully not the max)

3. Limitation: Line speed:
1024 lines @ 120 Hz = 122,880 lines/second from practice.

The above 2. and 3. are real world proved values, while 1. is an given value from specs. Clearly other factors may influence actual speeds. Values can be even higher (which I hope for the codec limit) or lower.

So as we clearly hope for 4K 60p at some point (inspite of a 2K scaled as you requested us some time ago, but recently stated "[surely] not until NAB"), we can at least identify that within above constrains certain custom resolutions could be possible, maybe with some nurdish increments of 4, 8 or 16 lines as size multiplicators, but at least possible.


Having worked with lots of industrial cameras, I see technically no big reasons to not have user defined custom modes within these constraints.

What could be an issue is how a custom mode is displayed / refreshed on the LCD/EVF/HD-SDI/HDMI path. But if one would agree that a 2K 2:1 120Hz is already far out of question to be in any way compatible to any of these output ports, its already the solution: Treat it as if you were treating this high speed 2k 120Hz format.

So given the above facts, slightly including some speculation (but minimal as I think), we should be able to do some interesting custom modes, such as:

High Speed thoughts...:

2048y @ 60 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2304x (nearly 1:1 mode)
1536y @ 80 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2304x (a 3:2 mode)
1200y QXGA @ 102 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2312x
1080y HD @ 113 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2316x
1024y SXGA @ 120 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2304x (hey, more than 2:1...)
800y XGA @ 153 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2312x
720y HD @ 170 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2312x
576y PAL @ 213 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2304x
480y NTSC/VGA @ 256 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2304x
288y PAL one field @ 426 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2304x
240y NTSC one field @ 512 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2304x
128y YouTube style @ 960 Hz maximum, maximum width then ~2304x

Comments welcome!

Cheers,
Axel
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top