IS RED FIGHTING THE WRONG BATTLE ?

[Jarred Land]

Also - whats ISK? "IMPROVED SKIN TONE"?

ISK is the internal Skin Tone filter which you guys are already using. Weapon OLPF's have a mechanical indicator to tell the camera what glass it is remember... so it automatically switches to the right filter in the metadata so you don't need to do that yourselves through the menus.

 

[shashbugu]

Hey Robert, Welcome back

And yes.. Weapon isn't JUST about 8k and Vista Vision. It takes everything about the Dragon and makes it better. For example.. the things that you just commented that are an issue with you, are better on Weapon.

CMOS Smear is reduced on Weapon and those little IR orbs around lightbulbs that you get in rare occasions are dramatically reduced.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words:

Wow! Nice. Not that I ever noticed the red fringing. I don't really no many people who would point their cameras at a light bulb

 

[Andy White]

Hey Robert, Welcome back

And yes.. Weapon isn't JUST about 8k and Vista Vision. It takes everything about the Dragon and makes it better. For example.. the things that you just commented that are an issue with you, are better on Weapon.

CMOS Smear is reduced on Weapon and those little IR orbs around lightbulbs that you get in rare occasions are dramatically reduced.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words:

Well. great news for those who are upgrading to Weapon.

Guess current Dragon owners will have to work around - or keep our fingers crossed that some of this ripples down.

 

[egon touste]

This article may go some way towards explaining why it is this way.
http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camgear/what-alexa-and-watercolors-have-in-common.html

i do have a reasonable understanding of colour science and math, unlike the author of this article.. which is his personal interpretation/speculation..

these guys are a little more technical, we should ask them to test an alexa? .. epic beat the FF hasselblads according to these tests, in terms of dynamic range and colour sensitivity .. it was a prototype dragon they tested

https://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/RED...point-DxOMark-sensor-score-barrier/Conclusion

alexa "downsamples" its raw. thats what everyone then compares to 1:1 res. r3ds..
downsample and colour match your r3d if you are going to compare them is my advise..

downsampling reduces artifacts..

the f55 has more dynamic range than alexa in my limmited tests .. but the colour is a bit "bolox" in comparison (technical term)
epic thrashes both on dynamic range .. but whether that "range" gets used during accquisition or not, or developed appropriately in post is another thing altogether

alexa is "easier" to shoot . that s why it wins the hearts of the out the box nice shooters..people who want to see a near finished grade at time of acquisition..

but its time arri dropped a new sensor frankly imo

 

[Andreas Mendritzki]

Hey Robert, Welcome back

And yes.. Weapon isn't JUST about 8k and Vista Vision. It takes everything about the Dragon and makes it better. For example.. the things that you just commented that are an issue with you, are better on Weapon.

CMOS Smear is reduced on Weapon and those little IR orbs around lightbulbs that you get in rare occasions are dramatically reduced.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words:

Woot woot! Right on Jarred, that is good news! Looking much better!

 

[luigivaltulini]

Hey Robert, Welcome back

And yes.. Weapon isn't JUST about 8k and Vista Vision. It takes everything about the Dragon and makes it better. For example.. the things that you just commented that are an issue with you, are better on Weapon.

CMOS Smear is reduced on Weapon and those little IR orbs around lightbulbs that you get in rare occasions are dramatically reduced.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words:

Great improvement.:001_tt1:
I can not wait to see some pictures from Vista vision

 

[Demetri Zuev]

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words:

Please emphasize on why this is not possible on Epic Dragon If it's the same sensor with same OLPFs. I'm happy for future Weapon owners, but this is something that should be fixed on current dragons too imo...

 

[Nick Morrison]

Please emphasize on why this is not possible on Epic Dragon If it's the same sensor with same OLPFs. I'm happy for future Weapon owners, but this is something that should be fixed on current dragons too imo...

My assumption....Weapon has entirely new boards/processing, etc. The sensor is the same. But everything else...is not.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Is this a hardware or software fix?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Is this a hardware or software fix?

Maybe both?

 

[Antony Newman]

Fascinating.

Could there be non-linear response differences that are now being fixed in real time.

A method where the sensor going into clipping for RGB can be accurately mapped to ensure all channels clip at the same point?

The Weapon ISK and LLO are also looking much closer than the Dragon (interesting tha the Old sensor is called the Dragon btw).

Weapon LLO is also looking a step up from Dragon ISK ... Although the Weapon ISK blue looks a hint more saturated.

Is the Weapon ISK still giving extra secret-sauce that the LLO does not?

AJ

 

[Mike Nagel]

Please emphasize on why this is not possible on Epic Dragon If it's the same sensor with same OLPFs. I'm happy for future Weapon owners, but this is something that should be fixed on current dragons too imo...

+1000

would love to see this addressed on all cams utilizing the Dragon sensor.

I'm sure there are some methods in the new algorithm that can be used directly in cam on Epic Dragons, especially at lower frame rates like standard 23.976 fps...

and maybe even post fixes in RCX... ?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

It would stand to reason that the new hardware might leverage some processing steps that couldn't be done in real time on the Epic silicon. If killing CMOS smear (or at least masking it) can be done in real time then Weapon has a feature I can count on when creative wants to shoot straight into a practical source or I have to pan/dolly along high contrast vertical forms (skyscrapers/trees/practicals like fences/utility poles, etc).

Perhaps the name Weapon is because they needed to "take on" a Dragon. FWIW, I think RED is still working hard to further harness what the Dragon sensor can generate. Part of that might be some mild noise reduction in silicon - please don't flame me, I mean MILD - I'd never want to give up the sense of "textures" I can get by holding high frequency detail so it has to be a light touch, very conservative.

I would expect steady improvements in usable S/N ratios with Dragon material via decode advancements to roughly mimic what could be done on the fly in camera (and eventually more). Nobody outside of RED knows how much of the performance envelope of the Weapon platform will be utilized in the early builds. How much is reassignable vs how much is set aside for the bigger sensor's data rate? Does the adjustment of compression ratio make that moot, in that write speed to the mini-mags is the controlling factor regardless of max frame size/rate? So perhaps the Weapon is "full bore" out of the gate, at least in terms of data rates…

Cheers - #19

 

[Mike Nagel]

It would stand to reason that the new hardware might leverage some processing steps that couldn't be done in real time on the Epic silicon.

Dragons came with a board update for the Epics...

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Hey Robert, Welcome back

And yes.. Weapon isn't JUST about 8k and Vista Vision. It takes everything about the Dragon and makes it better. For example.. the things that you just commented that are an issue with you, are better on Weapon.

CMOS Smear is reduced on Weapon and those little IR orbs around lightbulbs that you get in rare occasions are dramatically reduced.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words:

With all due respect that should be fixed for current Dragon owners.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Dragons came with a board update for the Epics...

Yes, but that doesn't mean Weapon doesn't - at every level - have next gen boards (which maybe why the upgrades cost so much).

 

[Brian Merlen]

honestly one orb doesn't bother me the way it does when i get a dozen lol!

 

[Reuben Evans]

I bet some of the improvements are due to better thermal management in Weapon. Heat leads to noise in the darks. That would make it difficult to make those same improvements in the current body.

 

[Stacey Spears]

I bet some of the improvements are due to better thermal management in Weapon. Heat leads to noise in the darks. That would make it difficult to make those same improvements in the current body.

While I don't disagree with you, Jarred mentioned that Dragon has a heater on board to bring the sensor temp up. When you first boot the Dragon, turn on exposure view and then watch it as it warms up. Its much noisier when cold vs. running temp.

 

[Mike P.]

I bet some of the improvements are due to better thermal management in Weapon. Heat leads to noise in the darks. That would make it difficult to make those same improvements in the current body.

Not with Dragon; apparently it has a *heater* to maintain thermal temp to like 65c or something.

EDIT: Beaten... by... Stacey... By mere milliseconds... If this were the quick and the dead, I'd be dead.