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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is Epic x image identical to Scarlet X with equal settings?

Ack Ack Ack I de-railed the thread! Sorry everyone. (Edit: oh wait I didn't, the OP wanted to know which camera to buy)

Before anyone flames Dave, I'm sure he meant that now folks can get creative with smaller lights, not that lighting is going out the window.

As for Scarlet vs Epic picture quality... to put it simple...

For everyone who doesn't do what we do for a living, Epic and Scarlet look the same.
Often they are the same.
Sometimes they are not the same, and Epic is cleaner.

Good cinematography and post more than make up the difference. Red images deserve careful post processing. Debayer, sharpening, colorist, not in that order, make a much bigger impact on your picture than Epic- or Red One- or Scarlet MX!

And a fool with Epic and Master Primes will make shit, but give a Scarlet and a broken Canon lens to Janusz or Vadim or Emmanuel or Roger or any of the greats and our work will look like kindergarteners at recess :)
 
Don't buy a Scarlet. The Scarlet upgrade costs $9,500. The Epic upgrade costs $9,500. You get 10x the camera for 2x the price with Epic. Also like someone mentioned, epics ship today. Scarlet-Dragon.... October? August at the earliest. Can you bill $10,000 in jobs between now and August that you wouldn't have with a Scarlet?

Rolling shutter and noise do seem a little worse on the Scarlet too. But both create pretty good images. I went Epic because $ for $ it's a way better value. And if RED offers a Dragon2 or something then you'll have spent:

$7,500 + $9,500 + $9,500 = $26,500 for a ScarletDragon2
or
$17,500 + $9,500 + $9,500 = $36,500 for a EpicDragon2

Epic does 5k at 120fps Scarlet does 5k at 12fps. The price is just way too close to justify skimping. Especially because everything else costs so much. When Epic was $40k and Scarlet was $10k it was more justifiable but now it's just absurd. Buy an Epic.

Accessories cost the same whether you buy an Epic or a Scarlet. You need a lens mount: $500, SSD Module $1k, Batteries, $1k, Battery plate, $500, Tripod $2,500, mattebox $2,000, microphone $500, LCD $900, Sidehandle $1k.... For a total shooting package an Epic is only about 25% more. And then once you take upgrades into account it's only a fraction more to go Epic than Scarlet but you get so much more performance.
 
Agreed with all of Gavin points. Epic is the smarter buy.

But there's one little thing.

What if your clients can't afford Epic rental rates? Please don't answer "get better clients." If your jobs call for Scarlet rates, can you justify billing more because you have an Epic? Or will you bill what your people can afford, knowing you'll pay it off someday anyway, believing the 5K and FOV and extra fps / redcode horsepower will elevate your work regardless of what you charge? If that last one sounds good to you, well congratulations, you're undercutting your friendly local rental house. Those people have my back, I can't go charging half their usual rate, even if they give deals all the time too.

In my town there is always someone ready to bid lower and lower and lower. The dangerous part of getting into the rental game is assuming you'll be able to bill the "standard" rate, then realizing that's not the case. Worse, is your market is perhaps really suited to a different camera entirely? On the other hand, if you have clients who will pay what you ask, because you deliver great work and money is not their greatest worry, awesome, go Epic! If you plan on buying a 4,000 follow focus, 4,000 matte box, 5-10,000 tripod, all the other bells and whistles, yeah the difference between Epic and Scarlet becomes less, get the big boy camera.

If you're buying a camera to make your own movies, think.

Will you be shooting at a f/1.4 - f/2.0 on still lenses, or on Zeiss Superspeeds, or similar old glass? I have news for you--you're probably not resolving 5K no matter what sensor you've got back there. Then it comes down to wider FOV, high frame rates, super-low compression, faster path to Dragon, and a slight edge in low-light / skew. At the end of the day the Epic is the smarter choice. But don't buy the damn thing if that means you won't be able to afford decent support gear for it, or if your client base really doesn't justify it.

For me, Scarlet has been the sweet spot--Red brand name and Raw flexibility, + affordability for smaller productions. Epic has made a great B-camera to my Scarlet on some shows ;)

Horses for courses.
 
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After shooting both Scarlet and Epics side by side on "Southland" season 5 , I can tell you at 24fps 7:1 4KHD the image quality is virtually the same.. I do think I detected
some slight noise on the Scarlet at times but minimal.. I own the Scarlet and it has been a workhorse.. I hope this helps
 
Props on Southland, one of the best shows that was on, just read about the cancellation today, really bummed about that.

Also impressed with how the GoPro stuff in the recent season cut in. I mean it was easy for me to tell, but some cool shots none the less.
 
Thank you guys for all your input, I really appreciate all the feed back. I agree the Scarlet is a brilliant camera but I think I'm probably going to go for the Epic because just doing the numbers and considering I would have wanted to upgrade to the Epic eventually anyway. I think an Epic would be the smarter choice at the price point now and considering all of your valuable input. This will be my introduction into RED and Im really excited about it. I guess I will just save a few more bucks and spring for the Epic.
 
Yeah I though this was the best use of the GoPro of any season.. The GoPro 3 really had all the improvements we needed.. The RAW being one of the biggest and White Balance being so helpful.. I am glad you noticed as I was really please for the first time when they used those shots.

Cheers,
Dana Gonzales
 
Ryan De Franco said:
Agreed with all of Gavin points. Epic is the smarter buy.

But there's one little thing.

What if your clients can't afford Epic rental rates? Please don't answer "get better clients." If your jobs call for Scarlet rates, can you justify billing more because you have an Epic? Or will you bill what your people can afford, knowing you'll pay it off someday anyway, believing the 5K and FOV and extra fps / redcode horsepower will elevate your work regardless of what you charge? If that last one sounds good to you, well congratulations, you're undercutting your friendly local rental house. Those people have my back, I can't go charging half their usual rate, even if they give deals all the time too.

In my town there is always someone ready to bid lower and lower and lower. The dangerous part of getting into the rental game is assuming you'll be able to bill the "standard" rate, then realizing that's not the case. Worse, is your market is perhaps really suited to a different camera entirely? On the other hand, if you have clients who will pay what you ask, because you deliver great work and money is not their greatest worry, awesome, go Epic! If you plan on buying a 4,000 follow focus, 4,000 matte box, 5-10,000 tripod, all the other bells and whistles, yeah the difference between Epic and Scarlet becomes less, get the big boy camera.


Horses for courses.
Click to expand...


I just switched recently from scarlet to epic. An existing client was hastened to book me since he had no epic budget. I just offered him the scarlet deal if he wanted to stay at 4k up to 30fpf. I still got the gig.

You can always take a cut on your gear if you want to, but you can't upscale your gear if you needed to. ; )
 
James, this is a smart and interesting move. I like it ! :)
 
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