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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

is color using Raw data in all functions?

L

Levan Bakhia

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so what I mean, as we all know there is RED ROOM now in color, and as I understand all raw data can be changed there, but for instance in redcine we had a curve to adjust the image, now of course in color we do have much more tools, including curves, those curves are even for each of the RGB channels if you need, but when we work with this curves in color, are we adjusting the raw data still, or is it somehow different? this could be the question about say secondary room as well, when we change something in secondaries are we actually working with raw info in this case?

also, does the raw data stay exactly the same, or are we loosing any data when doing a log and transfer? ( I know we are loosing a resolution in case of 4K, but other than that)
 
The underlying RAW data is the same, you don't loose any through the process. For one reason or another the decode is 2k only, but the full 4k data is still underlying. The RAW room decodes the RAW with the parameters as is, and from there it's float so you can concatenate the feature of Color referring back to that RAW data. Because the curves are done as LUTs, there's effectively a clamp on the float data which means super whites are lost at that point and can't be pulled back later.

Graeme
 
when I saw that you have answered the question, I was happy assuming that it would be credible answer, but on the other hand, the only thing I understood was that I am not loosing any raw data, and this is very good to begin with, but I did not understand, so in simple words would this mean that color decodes raw data with the parameters set in REDROOM, and the picture we see is what this decoding result is, but then when we change the other parameters in color, is color also seeing the decoded data, or it actually goes deeper inside the raw data? say to compare the process, I render our a 16 bit linear tiff files (just theoretically) with some X raw setting in redcine, and import it in color to do some other changes to the pictures, if we compare this to set the same X parameters in color REDROOM and do the same changes to the picture, is it the same or is color having access to more data?!

hope this is clear question. sorry if I am being too complicated about this, but I assume many users would be very interested in this because I am sure out of those thousand who got REDone not all are so technically aware of this.

thank you Graeme in advance.
 
It sees the decoded data, but it sees it as float, so you are not really loosing anything, unless you cause clipping.

Graeme
 
I don't think so - they all just point back at the same RAW R3D data that's behind the scenes.

Graeme
 
Cool, last question... for now:)

I have some B15 2:1 footage that plays realtime both in the _H proxy and when rewrapped to QT then I have some 2:1 B16 footage that won't playback realtime unless I disable the Blackmagic output. I'm guessing this is because of the MAX setting that wasn't disable-able in B16? I also have B17 footage in 16:9 (MAX off) that will play realtime as long as the video out is disabled.

Is this all processor based? Will a better video card help at all? Can I expect to get better realtime output performance by switching to a Kona 3 card with internal scaling?
Lastly I had to revert to the 3.1 QT codec to get proxy QTs to work again. Weird huh?
 
The R3D bit is processor based, but as soon as it gets decoded, Color shoves it up on the GPU and that's where the GPU and output card on/off makes a real difference. I don't know what the external cards do on their scaling.

I've not tried, but can you set up Color to work as 1080p from the 4k media, then the output card wouldn't have to scale, the image would be scaled by Color on the GPU?? Dunno - worth a try eh?

Graeme
 
Evin,

I assume you're talking about RT playback in FCP, not Color.

Somebody on another board pointed out to me that when trying to playback a 2048x1024 timeline in FCP out a Kona LH, the resize from 2048 to 1920 gets done on the CPU. I get RT playback as well in FCP *if* I turn off the Kona.

This person mentioned that a Kona 3 can do the 2K scale to 1920 in hardware, and playback then stays RT without dropping. This was something the 6.0 drivers did for the Kona 3...but not for the LH.

Since I'm going to be working with so much Red footage in the future, I might be upgrading to a 3 now, I'm guessing.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
It sees the decoded data, but it sees it as float, so you are not really loosing anything, unless you cause clipping.

Graeme
Click to expand...

ok, so if I cause clipping, that would mean that I need to go to RED room to change something right?
 
Feature ... request...?

Feature ... request...?

Graeme Nattress said:
It sees the decoded data,...
Graeme
Click to expand...

- Is it possible in a future :sarcasm: to have a full debayer decode in color (not a half debayer) tipically when we want to make final render from the full 4k to 1080 QT?

- Is it possible :innocent: to implement features like in REDCINE (noise reduction filters...)?

- Does anybody know if Scratch does a decode to RGB, to apply secondaries... (like Color does as Graeme explained) or does it always apply correction to the raw data?


Thanks

Patrick


4k 2:1 build14 25fps / UI desabled / 8core 3.0Ghz in a 1080 Color project played @ 3 Frames/sec. Video output enabled or not, did not change playback speed. BlackMagic card.
 
Nate, I kinda want to test this for sure before dropping $2K+ on a Kona3.
As long as I use the 3.1 QT codec it looks like I can get RT playback and Multibridge HD-SDI output with 2:1 MAX off footage. That's fine for me right now, hopefully we'll see 4K HD support for the L&T soon for 16x9 HD shooting.

Graeme Nattress said:
I've not tried, but can you set up Color to work as 1080p from the 4k media, then the output card wouldn't have to scale, the image would be scaled by Color on the GPU?? Dunno - worth a try eh?

Graeme
Click to expand...

Any idea where this setting is Graeme?
 
NateWeaver said:
But you still wouldn't see real time in Color, because it's, well, Color!
Click to expand...

Noooo... :waaa:

I got 3 frames / second....

It's nearly unreatime!:)

Pat



4k 2:1 build14 25fps / UI desabled / 8core 3.0Ghz in a 1080 Color project played @ 3 Frames/sec. Video output enabled or not, did not change playback speed. BlackMagic card.
 
Yes, if you cause clipping in the RED room, you need to back off exposure or ISO.

Graeme
 
NateWeaver said:
But you still wouldn't see real time in Color, because it's, well, Color!
Click to expand...

Even without the scale I'm getting about 20fps in color, not bad really.
I'm going to upgrade my GPU next week and maybe then I'll see RT.
 
I'm doing CC in color for the 1st mid east film, and the results looks awesome guys, but I've a question here.. (as described at the red-fcp white paper) set the settings for each shot to linear 0 black 1023 white) I'm suggesting that this will convert my dpx render to linear, no logarithmic space any more ?

I've seen my results at shake they are great I liked them, and for great monitoring do you have any suggestions?
 
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