Is 2/3" going to be enough?

[Brigham Edgar]

As the tidal wave of 5D fever keeps on spreading and a host of productions from low budget to high end seem to be surrendering to this 'craze', is the imminent release of the Scarlet in this price bracket going to be enough with only a 2/3" sensor?
Leaving the argument to the obviousness of potentially FAR superior image quality and functionality behind, as Scarlet is still just a spec sheet and could be for a long period yet while the 5D is here, the obvious reason why the FF DSLR is making massive moves is because of the price-point and primarily offering a FF sensor. So if the Scarlet is going to price around this market and directly compete, will the biggest factor for why this DSLR is so popular be the MAJOR downside to Scarlet and people will still opt for a FF sensor?
Has the bubble now popped and this is a feature that low-end cameras and customers are going to demand in this price-point and if it doesn't it moves down the list of the 'number one' camera of choice with limited finances.

 

[Justin McAleece]

The tumultuous present.

The tumultuous present.

It is a very hard thing to understand quite how a market works when $800 cameras look so much "better" or at least more movie like and "expensive" than a 10K ENG camera. Most converts to Scarlet will be amateur filmmakers - Not ENG people making there living shooting for broadcast. So yeah, who is the scarlet appealing to now?

 

[David Battistella]

I have said this in other threads but I do not see the need for 2/3" camera with specialty glass...

It feels like a collossal effort in a saturated market.

Of course, RED might know or understand something we all do not.

Personally, I would like to see RED striving for the higher end market, do that really well, and be the smart choice for digital cinema, which itself is becoming an increasingly competitive market.

I have never been a fan of lesser versions of the best product. In apple's case FCP vs. FCE, AVID released handcuffed versions of their software at one point.

The EPIC seems like a big improvement on RED ONE, but seriously I do not know why anyone would want a 2/3" inch camera when there are R1's R1-MX cameras hitting the market at a really decent prices after EPIC.

It will be interesting to watch.

David

David

 

[michael zaletel]

If they announced that you could buy 2/3 fixed Scarlet in stock starting tomorrow at every Apple Store worldwide for an early premium of $12,000, the entire stock would be sold out in the first day at every store. ENG people would be among the first in line. The unique combination of quality, portability and price will have every professional filmmaker wanting one even if for some only as a second or third camera in their arsenal.

You don't know what you're talking about regarding global demand for 2/3 Fixed SCARLET.

-michael zaletel

 

[David Battistella]

You could be right. Scarlet might be RED's ipod. I might be a complete dork for thinking this way, but I don't have to be right about everything, i'm just blind on this one.

I don't see anything about RED that screams ENG. There are plenty of ENG camera's out there.

David

 

[michael zaletel]

You could be right. Scarlet might be RED's ipod. I might be a complete dork for thinking this way, but I don't have to be right about everything, i'm just blind on this one.

I don't see anything about RED that screams ENG. There are plenty of ENG camera's out there.

David

Or at least their MacBook Pro.

I'm not saying it's optimal for ENG, just saying it will sell like crazy to that market anyway even if only as a 2nd camera. You can't take front-page stills with a PMW-350 and many can't accept the compression from a 5DM2.

But none of this is really even the point. There's plenty of market share to go around, human beings love and are loyal to different brands for different reasons. That's why people still buy jewelry in mall jewelry stores for 3 times as much as they can otherwise.

There's two different discussions here. Is 2/3 enough to be better than lower price alternatives and is 2/3 enough to create demand that won't be easily supplied. Since the latter is certainly true, who cares about the former. If RED made the 2/3 Scarlet any better, they'd just have more people standing around that can't get their hands on one. Why do you think the first iPad didn't have a camera or 3G, cause it didn't matter, they still sold out.

-michael zaletel

 

[David Battistella]

R3D is not a great format for ENG. This is still going to be a bottleneck compared to HDXDCAM and P2 which are begining to seriously penetrate the ENG market.

TV Stations converting from existing workflows will look seriously at SONY and PANASONIC before looking at SCARLET. I do not think this is RED's market at all.

The Scarlet might be aimed at the individual user, or as a solution for education (film school) market (where 4K RED One's have already pentrated) or ???.

david

 

[michael zaletel]

R3D is not a great format for ENG. This is still going to be a bottleneck compared to HDXDCAM and P2 which are begining to seriously penetrate the ENG market.

TV Stations converting from existing workflows will look seriously at SONY and PANASONIC before looking at SCARLET. I do not think this is RED's market at all.

The Scarlet might be aimed at the individual user, or as a solution for education (film school) market (where 4K RED One's have already pentrated) or ???.

david

You are assuming an ENG shooter would have to deal with R3D files. Perhaps they could use the H.264 module or record the HD monitoring feed?

-michael zaletel

 

[Kevin Marshall]

I do not know why anyone would want a 2/3" inch camera when there are R1's R1-MX cameras hitting the market at a really decent prices after EPIC.

I would ask why *wouldn't* anyone want a 2/3" 3K RAW camera for around the same price they're shelling out for HVXs, EX1s, etc.; let alone the Letuses and such they trick 'em out with.

That's just my angle.

 

[David Battistella]

I would ask why *wouldn't* anyone want a 2/3" 3K RAW camera for around the same price they're shelling out for HVXs, EX1s, etc.; let alone the Letuses and such they trick 'em out with.

That's just my angle.

-I've never been a fan of fixed lens cameras, they are always a compromise, not wide enough not tight enough.

-4K is becoming a standard, why dumb it down?

-Depth of field

All those "other" camera's also have a bunch of companies making lens adaptors and the like to give them the flexibility of interchangable lenses. The whole reason RED was created was to get away from this kind of disadvantage.

-on the non fixed lens end of things: you have to invest in a glass system that you can not use anywhere else. You might get to change lenses, but the lenses only cover one format with a new mount system.

And I want to be really clear. I am not "anti" anything. Just asking questions out loud here. The FF Scarlett has a place for sure. I am just not sure where the 2/3" fits, that's all.

David

 

[David Battistella]

You are assuming an ENG shooter would have to deal with R3D files. Perhaps they could use the H.264 module or record the HD monitoring feed?

-michael zaletel

So the point of REDCODE RAW, the cornerstone of the RED program is........ ??????

see where I am going with this?

David

 

[Kenneth Elkington]

You are assuming an ENG shooter would have to deal with R3D files. Perhaps they could use the H.264 module or record the HD monitoring feed?

-michael zaletel

When you price it out under this setup, this starts being a little impractical compared to other ENG cams out there.

 

[Brigham Edgar]

Exactly David, i don't believe Scarlet will be at all ideal for ENG situations...even though some will use it there. It has to be fast turnaround, baked in look, easy fast acceptable edit format and codec etc etc. I may be proved wrong but this i don't believe where Scarlet is aimed for at all.
It is aimed at maybe EFP market where 2/3" is heavily used and does not have the fast easy turnaround issues like ENG based work.

But this goes away from the idea of Scarlet being a camera designed for low budget features, commercials etc. A production camera rather than a news camera. This is the market where it is being aimed at, this is the market that FF DSLR's are hitting in a major way and this is where my question and the debate leads. Considering this and the reason for it being the FF and pricepoint advantage over quality, will Scarlet even with it's image quality, feature spec and comparable price-point be enough to sway a market that have grabbed the FF sensation with both hands and run with it?
My feeling is NO, as despite a generally awful image quality while asthetically pleasing to most, so many image problems and limitations it is the price and FF that makes it a huge success. If i were RED and still not even at the prototype stage of Scarlet i would be shelving the 2/3" and going straight to a FF sensor option. They want to be cutting edge and pushing the limits, well times have changed since that now long ago announcement of Scarlet. It could still be used for everything that the 2/3" would be but i think the bar has been set that FF is the BIG factor. 2/3" is still very very acceptable and will be for many productions and for as long as we can see in the future but FF is without doubt much preferred and this has been proven by Canon. And my god, this video function was an afterthought by Canon...wait till they get serious and then look out! Considering we could still potentially be 6-12 months away from Scarlet that leaves plenty of time for a much improved FF DSLR to hit the market.

 

[David Battistella]

When you price it out under this setup, this starts being a little impractical compared to other ENG cams out there.

ENG camera's do what they do very, very well.

David

 

[Kevin Marshall]

And I want to be really clear. I am not "anti" anything. Just asking questions out loud here. The FF Scarlett has a place for sure. I am just not sure where the 2/3" fits, that's all.

I understand - same points I've heard from some of the people I work with/for. They're all totally valid - I really can't argue any of them.

I think the student/amateur/hobbyist thing is a big one. Low-cost enough to justify purchase, rather than constant rental for every gig.

As for the difference in quality between the S35 and 2/3" varieties, I guess that goes back to the whole "good enough" can of worms.

I'd also like to throw in that modularity/upgradability is definitely a factor here. Just because I may buy a 2/3" kit doesn't mean it will be that way forever. Everyone's gotta start somewhere.

 

[David Battistella]

I also have to add that I am not one of those folks who have seen the mini primes or the mockups of the fixed Scarlett, etc, so I so not have a sense of the compactness of the system (if that is what it's true selling point is).

So I will wait and see. I am sure I will utter the word "cool", when I see it up close.

Based on what I have seen with EPIC, I can imagine taking that camera to the end of the earth and capturing 5K. That is very cool.

David

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I'm not opting for a FF sensor.

Firstly I think FF is just too much, in terms of DOF. Secondly 2/3" gives you high speed on a budget.

Fixed lens @ T2.4 is a great compromise, we haven't heard final specs on the focal length range, that should be the last information so we can make up our minds.

2/3" is also awesome in its cinema flavor if your budget is a little bigger. For the price of a S35 brain alone you get a 2/3" brain with Miniprimes. If one wants cine-style manual primes that's the way to go.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

If 2/3" is enough for the Sony F23, then it should be enough for most people...

I really don't think that the DSLR is competitive to Scarlet. If you're willing to put up with a crap codec, alising/moire problems, rubbish audio inputs and little to no modularity, then by all means shoot a 5D or 7D... But there will always be plenty of people who share RED's 'No compromises' attitude, and Scarlet is perfect for that.

2/3" is way easier to focus anyway, especially in low light when you need to open up. 120fps at 3K is nothing to be scoffed at either...

 

[michael zaletel]

So the point of REDCODE RAW, the cornerstone of the RED program is........ ??????

see where I am going with this?

David

Because everyone wishes they had more resolution later on. Being able to shoot 3k RAW for the future while at the same time getting your job done quickly with H.264 or HD to Disk has a tremendous upside.

We shot a 500 hours of documentary live-streaming reality in Vegas 5 years ago and the only way to do that was via Firewire standard definition out. The HVR-Z1U let us do that while at the same time recording 1080i HDV to tape. That footage will be on the History channel 30 years from now because we were able to put HD to tape while at the same time streaming 480x320 live to the web over Verizon modems on custom designed laptop backpacks. A first.

www.i4vegas.tv

-michael zaletel

 

[David Battistella]

..while at the same time getting your job done quickly with H.264 or HD to Disk has a tremendous upside.

-michael zaletel

Why would I transcode h264 (which I would have to do anyway) if I could transcode right from the R3D?

Prores module or a direct to edit codec makes sense in your argument, sorry H.264 needs to be turned into something to edit with. (same as other systems that use that codec)

David