Is 2/3" going to be enough?

[David Rasberry]

Well that is the beauty of a modular system. You can upgrade to S35 by just adding a brain and lenses.
The DSLR's fill a niche at the bottom price wise. Certainly an affordable step up from a typical small chip consumer handi-cam.
But many of us are not willing to sacrifice absolutely everything else that makes for a practical general purpose production camera just to get 35mm shallow DOF.
The price may be cheap, but the video quality out of a DSLR at this point is bottom of the barrel consumer grade HD.

 

[Sean Lee]

Well that is the beauty of a modular system. You can upgrade to S35 by just adding a brain and lenses.

That's ... pretty much a whole camera.

 

[Erich Roland]

2/3

2/3

Once the punters are sitting in the theatre/loungeroom, none of this stuff matters at all. Is the story compelling? Do the images tell the story? I've done a number of edits recently shot on both 5Ds and RED Ones, and whilst they all "looked cool", none of them really did a very good job of conveying the narrative, because the DP had pretty much made himself a kick ass showreel instead of empowering the director to tell the story. If it suited the story, you could use a VHS-C camera. Not sure how many stops they have..........

This is becoming just like the AVID v FCP arguments, when people are watching the stuff we all make, they just don't care, what they care about is the story, the photography is there to serve the story, it isn't the story in and of itself.
I am hating dealing with 5D footage though. H264 is a great delivery format, not so much on the production side.

To me, the 2/3 Scarlett is kinda like a digital 16mm cam, not suited for everything, but very versatile, smaller than a 35 and produces images that can tell a story in an aesthetically pleasing way. Different to 35, or full frame, but does that make it worse? I think that would be an opinion surely.
I love the shallow DOF look, but I have to say (as have a few clients) I'm getting over it at the moment, especially the 5D stuff, that seems it's only trick.

Well stated James. The 35 slim DOF look is great but not always appropriate or even desired. Any shoot where you don't have a focus puller, following action or just needing to see more in things focus points toward 2/3" staying viable. Many are flocking to the DSLR's for a variety of reasons, and a lot of these folks are coming from 1/3" camera's where its tough to get anything out of focus. Having a lower priced 2/3" full functioned camera may be just the right combination of slimmer DOF (then 1/3") with digital cinema qualities, and high frame rates.... plus there are a ton of lower prices lenses out in the market and in peoples inventories already.... these 2/3" Scarlet's should be a HUGE hit I would expect. I'll buy a few asap!

 

[D Fuller]

That's ... pretty much a whole camera.

Aahhh... No. It's not.

 

[Stuart English]

2/3" v's 1/3"

2/3" v's 1/3"

...a lot of these folks are coming from 1/3" camera's where its tough to get anything out of focus. Having a lower priced 2/3" full functioned camera may be just the right combination of slimmer DOF (then 1/3") with digital cinema qualities, and high frame rates.... plus there are a ton of lower prices lenses out in the market and in peoples inventories already...

Agreed. Stepping up from those 1/3" sensors to Scarlet 2/3" will make a big difference to available DOF ..

as well as three other desirable "cinematic" qualities - resolution, low light sensitivity and dynamic range.

 

[David Rasberry]

That's ... pretty much a whole camera.

EVF $3200
2.8" LCD $900
5" LCD $1600
Batteries & module $1250
Dual CF card module $950
Single CF card module $500
Smart handle $950
Redmote $550
Base I/O module $1750
Pro I/O module $2750
SSD module $1500
Module adapter $350
etc...

There is a lot more to configuring a working camera system than just the brain and lenses. All of this is interchangeable with any Scarlet/Epic brain.

 

[Erich Ocean]

EVF $3200
2.8" LCD $900
5" LCD $1600
Batteries & module $1250
Dual CF card module $950
Single CF card module $500
Smart handle $950
Redmote $550
Base I/O module $1750
Pro I/O module $2750
SSD module $1500
Module adapter $350
etc...

There is a lot more to configuring a working camera system than just the brain and lenses. All of this is interchangeable with any Scarlet/Epic brain.

The above is pretty much the reason why -- 2/3" or not -- the Scarlet is going to be *way* beyond the typical DSLR user's budget. The price pressure on the DSLR side has been DOWN; Scarlet moves the whole discussion the other way. For *a lot* of people on the low end, that's a non-starter.

For Epic users? Sure, a 2/3" brain makes a ton of sense. I'm sure I'll own one. But the people inhabiting dvxuser? Not so much...

 

[Jaime Vallés]

The above is pretty much the reason why -- 2/3" or not -- the Scarlet is going to be *way* beyond the typical DSLR user's budget. The price pressure on the DSLR side has been DOWN; Scarlet moves the whole discussion the other way. For *a lot* of people on the low end, that's a non-starter.

For Epic users? Sure, a 2/3" brain makes a ton of sense. I'm sure I'll own one. But the people inhabiting dvxuser? Not so much...

Yeah, but 2/3" Scarlet isn't targeting the DSLR crowd. It's going after the HVX200 / EX3 / XLH1 crowd.

2/3" Scarlet Cinema brain - $2750
2.8" LCD - $900
Single CF card module - $500
Smart handle w/ Battery - $950
Module adapter - $350
3 RED Mini-Prime lenses ($950 each) - $2850
TOTAL = $8300

This gets you a badass 2/3" camera for the same price as a Sony EX3.

 

[David Rasberry]

The above is pretty much the reason why -- 2/3" or not -- the Scarlet is going to be *way* beyond the typical DSLR user's budget. The price pressure on the DSLR side has been DOWN; Scarlet moves the whole discussion the other way. For *a lot* of people on the low end, that's a non-starter.

For Epic users? Sure, a 2/3" brain makes a ton of sense. I'm sure I'll own one. But the people inhabiting dvxuser? Not so much...

I priced out a configuration for a Scarlet decked out to match as closely as possible the typical features of a 2/3" EFP camera, including the same lens that Sony provides with the PMW-350, and it comes out around $18000. Definitely not prosumer territory, but competitive with entry level 2/3" choices from the big three. The Cinema configuration I am looking at with used 16mm glass will be around $12k including lenses. Fixed would be more like $8k.
Personally I am glad RED is not compromising the little Scarlet just to hit a low price bracket. It should be a stand out in most respects in its price range as a high quality alternative to a mid-range EFP camera or an S16mm film camera.

 

[Brian Petrie]

The above is pretty much the reason why -- 2/3" or not -- the Scarlet is going to be *way* beyond the typical DSLR user's budget. The price pressure on the DSLR side has been DOWN; Scarlet moves the whole discussion the other way. For *a lot* of people on the low end, that's a non-starter.

For Epic users? Sure, a 2/3" brain makes a ton of sense. I'm sure I'll own one. But the people inhabiting dvxuser? Not so much...

I thought that for a typical DSLR user this would be another selling point. They can buy just the body and a few lenses/modules for a very affordable price and have it still be a very functional camera. However, they can add to the Scarlet over time and build up their kit to something like was mentioned above. The initial investment isn't nearly as high as some other 2/3 cameras are. In my opinion, they don't have to spend 15 grand out of the gate, however, if they chose they can upgrade as their budget allows. Therefore, couple that with all the other added features and I see the Scarlet being very enticing to the DSLR crowd.

 

[lonny dill]

I am very curious about Scarlet it still sounds interesting, almost consumer like, but every day it doesn't ship I get discouraged. DSLR or "DSMC" cameras with 1080p video are coming out daily from other manufacturers. Red Digital seems cutting edge and geared to introduce innovative product in the forefront. I am not sure that by the time Scarlet comes out, that Scarlet will be cutting edge or new technology. Hands down, the Red1 and the Epic are so far ahead of their time, that they have every other manufacturers still stuck in the starting gate. But when it comes to "DSMC" cameras, "DSMC" has already been done. The 5DMK2 just hit 1 million units sold at $2600 per body, that is a lot of $. My guess is that Canon's engineers are in the lab working on "DSMC" not DSLR" cameras.

I think you will always need two cameras in your arsenal. The Red Epic and a DSLR(DSMC) from Canon.

 

[Jay Gannon]

The 5DMK2 just hit 1 million units sold at $2600 per body, that is a lot of $. My guess is that Canon's engineers are in the lab working on "DSMC" not DSLR" cameras.
.

The vast vast majority of Canons sales are from stills, if you think that they are going to concentrate on video over stills you are way off base. And Scarlet is 3k not 1080, different league.

 

[lonny dill]

What is 3K for again?

What is 3K for again?

The vast vast majority of Canons sales are from stills, if you think that they are going to concentrate on video over stills you are way off base. And Scarlet is 3k not 1080, different league.

That is true. What is 3K for?

 

[Jay Gannon]

True 1080/2k finish with enough headroom to grade without the footage falling apart.
Being able to do a true 2k finish opens up a lot of opportunities.

 

[Kenneth Elkington]

That is true. What is 3K for?

3k means you can resolve a full 1080 in spatial resolution not just nominal resolution, as well as allowing for the possibilities of reframing in post.

 

[Chris Gold]

The 3k of the scarlet equates to somewhere around full 1080p Luma, and somewhere between 1080p 4:2:2 & 4:2:0 color sampling. Currently, the cheapeast full raster 2/3" Video camera is the Sony PMW-350k, which is about 4 times as expensive with a lens, and shoots to a 4:2:0 35mb/s Long GOP Codec. (Though it is capabale of more color info out of the sdi if you buy an external recorder)

The scarlet is an excellent deal for a 2/3" Video Camera.


On another note,

If a full 1080p television (or a full raster 3 chip camera) counted resolution like red (and dslrs) do it would be around 4k, since at every pixel it has a rbg, where the red counts each seperate rgb as a pixel.

Camera manafacturers too often claim their cameras are doing more then they really are. The "1080p" out of a HVX200 is upresed 960x540, and the DSLR's are certainly not full 1080P (when you point one at a line chart it turns to rainbows around 700 lines).

"real" 1080p is very sharp, and most people don't get to see it because they are looking at images recorded to a 1080p codec that were upressed out of a lower resolution sensor. Or the camera throws away 3/4's of the color data when it records it to card (4:2:0 out of full raster 3 chip camera).


=

 

[David Rasberry]

Bayer pattern raw does not compare very well to any encoded color codec. A 1080p camera outputs 1920 x 1080p RGB color pixel image. Scarlet 3k raw after deBayer outputs 3072 x 1620 RGB color pixel image 16 bit 4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0 or any other encoded format color space you care to use. The optical resolution will be around 70-80% of this. The optical resolution of a 3-chip 1080Pcamera likewise will be around 80% maybe 85% at best if you don't mind some aliasing. A fully resolved debayered 3k image from a RED will show around 1100 lines vertical resolution on a chart compared to around 800-850 for 1080p.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Bayer pattern raw does not compare very well to any encoded color codec. A 1080p camera outputs 1920 x 1080p RGB color pixel image. Scarlet 3k raw after deBayer outputs 3072 x 1620 RGB color pixel image 16 bit 4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0 or any other encoded format color space you care to use. The optical resolution will be around 70-80% of this. The optical resolution of a 3-chip 1080Pcamera likewise will be around 80% maybe 85% at best if you don't mind some aliasing. A fully resolved debayered 3k image from a RED will show around 1100 lines vertical resolution on a chart compared to around 800-850 for 1080p.

Three chip cameras like the EX1/3 or the HPX-370 do output 1000+ lines 1080p images. Even the $900 Panasonic TM700 is close to 1000. I have to say, 1100 lines is perhaps a bit pessimistic. That is less than 70% whereas Graeme has suggested it is more like 80%.

 

[David Rasberry]

I am very curious about Scarlet it still sounds interesting, almost consumer like, but every day it doesn't ship I get discouraged. DSLR or "DSMC" cameras with 1080p video are coming out daily from other manufacturers. Red Digital seems cutting edge and geared to introduce innovative product in the forefront. I am not sure that by the time Scarlet comes out, that Scarlet will be cutting edge or new technology. Hands down, the Red1 and the Epic are so far ahead of their time, that they have every other manufacturers still stuck in the starting gate. But when it comes to "DSMC" cameras, "DSMC" has already been done. The 5DMK2 just hit 1 million units sold at $2600 per body, that is a lot of $. My guess is that Canon's engineers are in the lab working on "DSMC" not DSLR" cameras.

I think you will always need two cameras in your arsenal. The Red Epic and a DSLR(DSMC) from Canon.

Jannard created the term DSMC and defined it to mean a camera that shoots raw motion and stills with no difference in image quality between the two. The DSLR's are Still/video hybrids, not true DSMC and their video quality is nowhere near as good as their stills. You can't for instance shoot video and extract a full resolution still frame from it that would be acceptable as a high quality still image.
I think a lot of people have a hard time grasping just how revolutionary RED is compared to any camera that shoots encoded video.

 

[Zaphod]

Personally I think the 2/3" Scarlet would have been extremely popular a couple of years ago, but now it will struggle.

The current fashion is for large sensor cameras, whether you like it or not.
Even in the DSLR video world, the 5D for video is more popular than the 1D or 7D due to the sensor size.

Cameras like the Sony NEX-VG10 are interesting.