Is 1k more really worth $24,000 more

[reality]

If you want to have a sensor that can do a global shutter, what you need is 2 identical sensors on a single silicon waver, one half being shielded from receiving light. At the shutter reset, the info from the light receiving part of the sensor is duplicated on the non light receiving part of the sensor and the info is read out in rolling shutter fashion from the non-light receiving one. Aside from the global shutter capability you will also gain Dynamic Range by processing the image this way.

The larger the sensor, the harder to manufacture.

IF Epic has a global shutter, it will have a sensor TWICE the size and at least twice the manufacturing cost for the sensor. Hence the higher price tag. This small but important step in image quality gain will be worth it to many people, including me.

And Big T you obviously haven't tested the Dalsa Origin since it is truly a 4K camera of the highest quality and records uncompressed RAW 4K Bayer data to an S2 or a Codex and NOT a deck as you falsely claim. Educate yourself before you make false statements please :angry03: .

florian, what you're talking about is a frame transfer ccd. it does not by it's nature have any more dynamic range than other technologies. it does have advantages over interline ccds but its not necessarily an ideal technology either. it can't do high frame rates and requires a physical shutter.

 

[Mark Toia]

If you are talking about independent productions, then I agree with you, but the big productions are not all that concerned about the cost of the other cameras. They'd just be renting them anyway.

I've all ready been hammered on this website for trying to play devil's advocate, but RED is still a compromise for the big productions. Resolution is not the end all be all of what the big camera companies were trying to do. If they wanted to have created a 4K camera by now, then they could have.

Dalsa has 4K. It is expensive, but it has none of the rolling shutter issues of RED. As much as I hear people saying that's not that big of a problem, it is an issue that is going to keep the majority of big pros from adopting the camera.

I honestly believe that this is the way it is going to be. RED is inexpensive, but there is a compromise. Indies will use it extensively. When the other camera companies finally create their 4K cameras, they will be expensive, but there won't be any compromise. That is the direction the Hollywood pics will go.


RED has been out for less than a year. It's still a little early to go around declaring a revolution, especially when we haven't even seen the first group of RED features yet. Only time will tell.

Yes I stand corrected, Dalsa is 4k, and yes the pictures are outstanding and not once did I say the others were'nt either. The pictures out of all of these top end cameras are amazingly good, this is not the argument.
But please don't push down the RED ONE when you have obviously never shot it back to back yet. Or even shot RED to be even commenting.
It's images are equally as good for 5th the price of the others
This is the point Im making.

You obviously don't own one yet. If you did I wouldn't be having this conversation with you.
Or you have purchased a Dalsa and are trying to justify it to yourself. Or a Dalsa REP and you are only on this forum to discredit the competition, (I think this is more close to the truth)
What ever your beef is with RED is unfounded.

What compromise in resolution are you talking about?, if it's this silly slew argument, I'm still looking for it. We shoot nothing other than fast action, if there is a slewed shot in there, it must be over a frame or two. nothing worth even talking about.

I've seen back to back with Dalsa and Genisis Arri21, F35 and film 50d you are completely wrong about RED
Obviously you didn't go to the 4k screening at NAB. I sat with the WARNER people in the theatre. They were shocked by how good the actual screened quality really was as was I.

I can't hang a Genisis or a dalsa off a R rig...too heavy. they are way to bloody big!, Also be to scared to put those big beasts on any crazy situation. The tech's worry about them already, let alone not being albe to get your hands on a spare one if there was a problem.
Still good cameras none he less.

I'm doing a stunt shot next friday with 7 RED's covering it, and 2 arri 435's. (reason why is we ran out of RED's)
My savings on cameras go to bigger production values not to massive rents. Studio is very very happy.

Oh and the studios are more budget conscience than they have ever been. I know because we are connected to a few.
Fact is RED is best BANG FOR BUCK digi cine camera in the market place. (may not be the best image) i believe that goes to the Phantom 65 and perhaps your Dalsa.

BUT RED wins on points sorry.

Moving on.

 

[Alex G. Cohn]

Yes I stand corrected, Dalsa is 4k, and yes the pictures are outstanding and not once did I say the others were'nt either. The pictures out of all of these top end cameras are amazingly good, this is not the argument.
But please don't push down the RED ONE when you have obviously never shot it back to back yet. Or even shot RED to be even commenting.
It's images are equally as good for 5th the price of the others
This is the point Im making.

You obviously don't own one yet. If you did I wouldn't be having this conversation with you.
Or you have purchased a Dalsa and are trying to justify it to yourself. Or a Dalsa REP and you are only on this forum to discredit the competition, (I think this is more close to the truth)
What ever your beef is with RED is unfounded.

What compromise in resolution are you talking about?, if it's this silly slew argument, I'm still looking for it. We shoot nothing other than fast action, if there is a slewed shot in there, it must be over a frame or two. nothing worth even talking about.

I've seen back to back with Dalsa and Genisis Arri21, F35 and film 50d you are completely wrong about RED
Obviously you didn't go to the 4k screening at NAB. I sat with the WARNER people in the theatre. They were shocked by how good the actual screened quality really was as was I.

I can't hang a Genisis or a dalsa off a R rig...too heavy. they are way to bloody big!, Also be to scared to put those big beasts on any crazy situation. The tech's worry about them already, let alone not being albe to get your hands on a spare one if there was a problem.
Still good cameras none he less.

I'm doing a stunt shot next friday with 7 RED's covering it, and 2 arri 435's. (reason why is we ran out of RED's)
My savings on cameras go to bigger production values not to massive rents. Studio is very very happy.

Oh and the studios are more budget conscience than they have ever been. I know because we are connected to a few.
Fact is RED is best BANG FOR BUCK digi cine camera in the market place. (may not be the best image) i believe that goes to the Phantom 65 and perhaps your Dalsa.

BUT RED wins on points sorry.

Moving on.

I don't have a beef with RED. I just think it's a little early to be praising it as a revolution. I believe in the revolution; I just don't think it's the RED ONE. It could very well be the EPIC, but we have to wait and see. If so, I think RED has pulled a little bit of a bait-and-switch on everybody.

This is the problem with this forum. Anybody who expresses even the slightest doubt is berated as a "Dalsa rep." I feel like Trotsky in here, among the crazies of the Russian Revolution.

I'm not sure why you think I said that the resolution of RED was a compromise. RED has resolution, but my point all along has been that resolution is not everything.

 

[Stuart English]

Red-one

Red-one

I don't have a beef with RED. I just think it's a little early to be praising it as a revolution. I believe in the revolution; I just don't think it's the RED ONE. It could very well be the EPIC, but we have to wait and see. If so, I think RED has pulled a little bit of a bait-and-switch on everybody.

Its fine to debate the relative merits of professional cameras, but lets skip the crap about "other manufacturers could have made a 4K camera if they chose to" and a RED "bait-and-switch" - which is presumably based on the fact that we are extending the product line with EPIC and / or we will offer a future RED-ONE upgrade option?

Did you actually SEE the 4K demo clips in the RED theatre at NAB? And did you see the color grading of film demo in the Sony booth on the same 4K SXRD projector? If you did, would you please tell me what you think the compromise is, and what this RED bait-and-switch is in your mind? Would love to hear your opinion on that. :red_bandana:

 

[Alex G. Cohn]

Its fine to debate the relative merits of professional cameras, but lets skip the crap about "other manufacturers could have made a 4K camera if they chose to" and a RED "bait-and-switch" - which is presumably based on the fact that we are extending the product line with EPIC and / or we will offer a future RED-ONE upgrade option?

Did you actually SEE the 4K demo clips in the RED theatre at NAB? And did you see the color grading of film demo in the Sony booth on the same 4K SXRD projector? If you did, would you please tell me what you think the compromise is, and what this RED bait-and-switch is in your mind? Would love to hear your opinion on that. :red_bandana:

Well, clearly I'm not the only person who sees the RED ONE / EPIC as a bait-and-switch. There are plenty of die-hard believes on this board who are complaining about that, and they have full right to do so. I'm not even going to go into the $500 batteries and all that.

All CMOS chips are a compromise in some way, just as CCDs are a compromise in other ways. RED still does not have the latitude of film, and these skew issues sound like a pretty big deal to me.

For digital to take over the industry, it's got to do everything film does, and it's got to do it better. If I'm a big Hollywood show, I still don't see a reason to switch from film.

I was not at NAB, so I cannot comment on RED's presentation there. I rarely ever pay attention to trade shows, because I know that people are just showing off the good stuff. As I have said several times in this thread, time will tell. I am waiting for the first wave of RED films to be released to pass final judgment on the RED ONE. There are going to be horror stories of some sort, just like there are with any new technology, or any film set for that matter. The question is what those stories are.



And do you honestly believe than Panavision or Sony couldn't have developed a 4K camera if they had actually wanted to devote the resources necessary on such a venture? They didn't see the market for it. You see how difficult it's been managing the data on Dalsa shoots? The support technology isn't where it needs to be right now.

 

[Mark Toia]

Well, clearly I'm not the only person who sees the RED ONE / EPIC as a bait-and-switch. There are plenty of die-hard believes on this board who are complaining about that, and they have full right to do so. I'm not even going to go into the $500 batteries and all that.

Lets stop this nonsense. Pleeeeeeeaaaaase!

You haven't shot RED on any real shoot scenarios but you comment like you have lived with one for months.
Your a Dalsa REP! or your mates, got one, whatever!, but please stop talking down what you don't know.
This is a pure sign of ignorance.
Before I bought anything I tested everything I could get my hands on. Something I very much doubt you have not done.

For the last time. DALSA, PHATOM, D21, F35 are great cameras.
Ok!

If you think RED is a sham! and a rip off, please get off the forum.
No one needs to hear your doom and gloom stories of a Camera that is a sham. All of us that have one and are working it hard in the field find your claims ridiculous to say the least.

I'm going back to my fictitious RED cameras to see if they haven't turned invisible or have been stolen by guys wearing Oakley sunnies.
But if they are still there in the truck, I'm going to check again to see if the inferior chip thats in it hasn't fallen out of it.

I'm sure there is a DALSA forum you can rag RED out on.

Dalsa REP!

Sheeeesh!!!!!
Give us all a break.

Please don't respond.

 

[Mark Toia]

Oooh and the forum was setup to help new comers to RED understand the best ways to use the camera.

Also setup for RED to get feedback on the cameras so as to build better models / versions etc for the future.
Like any other company.

The forum is not for Dalsa, Arri, Sony REPS to vent.

 

[jimhare]

And what bait and switch?!!! If you like the Red One, order it, if not, don't... They aren't suddenly saying if you want what we promised you have to buy Epic, it's a different beast.

If I buy a Canon 350D for $400, I don't suddenly claim Canon is trying to screw me by offering a 1DMIII for $10,000.


I have added up my Red One package and it comes to around $35k including lens, production pack, 3 batteries, 3 drives etc.

No bait about it, no cover up, no sham. It's not like Red are going to come to me after the sale telling me I need to spend more to make it work. Would I like an Epic? Probably but I don't need it and can't afford it. The Red One does what Jim promised it would, reality permitting... They have been open and honest about it.

That's it.

Honestly, I don't see the problem here.

 

[Alex G. Cohn]

I say that Dalsa doesn't suffer from rolling shutter issues, and suddenly I'm a Dalsa rep? You guys realize that you are actually hurting RED with this attitude. No wonder nobody takes this place seriously; you guys try and chase away anybody who expresses any sliver of a doubt about the MIRACULOUS RED CAMERA THAT GOD HIMSELF DID BESTOW UPON US!

You guys are completely ridiculous.

 

[Bob Torrance]

yikes!

yikes!

Dalsa is a nice camera but until their evolution camera works its not the same thing. Phantom is great at what it does. Sony said a year ago they are building a 4K camera for NAB 2009 (hopefully). 4K is here to stay. Epic is made for the high end. Red has 3 cameras for different markets. Sony has .....ah a bunch. I've seen RED on a very big screen, the F35 on a very big screen, viper, etc. Personally, I like the texture of the Red camera much more. Others may not. The studios are always slow to adopt new things but DP and directors will drive this camera.

my 2cts

 

[Mark Toia]

I say that Dalsa doesn't suffer from rolling shutter issues, and suddenly I'm a Dalsa rep? You guys realize that you are actually hurting RED with this attitude. No wonder nobody takes this place seriously; you guys try and chase away anybody who expresses any sliver of a doubt about the MIRACULOUS RED CAMERA THAT GOD HIMSELF DID BESTOW UPON US!

You guys are completely ridiculous.

Ditto.:glare:

Like we have been telling you, over an over again.
Please leave this forum if you doubt this cameras possibilities.
We do not care if you sell Dalsa cameras.
You spend your money on that, we will go our way thanks.

it's all good. We wont miss your hard sell of other cameras on this RED forum.

moving on.

thankyou for your input.

 

[Mark Toia]

Geeez, for 15 posts in total agcohn really got on side with his peers. NOT!

I wonder why people that are not into a product, jump onto that products forums and rubbish it.

We don't jump on a DALSA forum and rubbish Dalsa.?

Baffles me. it really really does.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

And do you honestly believe than Panavision or Sony couldn't have developed a 4K camera if they had actually wanted to devote the resources necessary on such a venture? They didn't see the market for it. You see how difficult it's been managing the data on Dalsa shoots? They support technology isn't where it needs to be right now.

LOL!!!

THAT is funny.

So glad they are supporting technology "where it needs to be right now".

Can somebody please give them a clue "where it needs to be right now"?

Oh, never mind ... they have noticed RED.

 

[Mark Toia]

LOL!!!

THAT is funny.

So glad they are supporting technology "where it needs to be right now".

Can somebody please give them a clue "where it needs to be right now"?

Oh, never mind ... they have noticed RED.

They most certainly have.

 

[Stuart English]

Red-one

Red-one

Well, clearly I'm not the only person who sees the RED ONE / EPIC as a bait-and-switch. There are plenty of die-hard believes on this board who are complaining about that, and they have full right to do so. I'm not even going to go into the $500 batteries and all that.

O.K so now that we have established that you didn't actually see the RED-ONE images on show at NAB, what exactly is your beef about our $450 140Wh battery?

I am not trying to bait anyone, but as a general comment if you want to debate a point, please explain it.

If you just want to hit and run, then you'll get hit back. This is a RED-USER forum, not a RED-MYTH forum.

Follow that rule and we'll be fine, O.K?

 

[donatello b]

"And do you honestly believe than Panavision or Sony couldn't have developed a 4K camera if they had actually wanted to devote the resources necessary on such a venture? "

let see , panavision was in HUGE debt .. Panavision teamed up with Sony & modified CineAlta's and was hoping to use Sony to develop a cinema style camera ... Sony didn't want to go beyond 2/3" sensor so panavision went out on their own and bought a sensor company to make a 35mm chip but still used Sony for the record to media = well sony is HD ....

now Sony the company that i asked back in 1999, 2000, 2001 why can't they make a 30p camera and their reply was why would anybody want that .. then panasonic came out with a 24p/30p affordable camera and when sony saw there was a market , after some time followed ...

bottom line is NONE of them saw a RED coming ...
NONE of them had the vision Red had ...
all the sony "experts " told them a 4k camera cost of R&D and the small number they would sell wouldn't be worth the $$$$$$$$$ ...
even when Red was at NAB 2006 - sony & others etc were all stating it can't be done today , can't be done at that price, you won't see Red at NAB 2007 ( as in the Red company won't be around) and if it could be done today it wouldn't be Red doing it ...

perhaps sony is saying the same about Red Ray or perhaps calling in their experts to ask "is this possible " ..

 

[Alex G. Cohn]

If you just want to hit and run, then you'll get hit back. This is a RED-USER forum, not a RED-MYTH forum.

My intention was never to hit anyone. I apologize if that's how I have come off. I came into this thread merely stating that EPIC would probably have more than just increased resolution from the RED, and I pointed out just how more expensive Dalsa is as a point of reference.

Then someone asked if I'd seen Dalsa, and I said that I had, and that even at 1080 it was incredible, and then I got hit by people asking why I was even comparing Dalsa to RED, why I was putting RED down, etc. etc.

It all escalated from there.

Please leave this forum if you doubt this cameras possibilities.

I'm sorry you guys feel that way. I thought this was supposed to be a forum of ideas. What kind of discussion can you have without dissenting opinion? That's a rhetorical question by the way, as I all ready know the answer.

I don't doubt that RED ONE is a fantastic camera. As I mentioned in an earlier post, all "compromise" is a relative term. Would I suggest a RED over any regular HD camera? Hell yeah. Would I suggest a RED over 35mm film, if someone had the means to shoot on film? Hell no.

That has been my point all along. RED is still a compromise when it comes to the quality of film.

LOL!!!

THAT is funny.

So glad they are supporting technology "where it needs to be right now".

Can somebody please give them a clue "where it needs to be right now"?

Oh, never mind ... they have noticed RED.

That was a typo that I have since fixed. I meant to say "The support technology isn't where it's supposed to be right now," not "They support technology isn't where it's supposed to be right now."

 

[Stuart English]

Red-one

Red-one

My intention was never to hit anyone. I apologize if that's how I have come off.

You are welcome to stick around Agcohn. But I'm still interested in what your comment about the "$500 batteries" was all about ?

 

[10s]

Yes it can be argued that RED has a ways to go to match film, but maybe EPIC will get close, now wouldn't that be nice? I think the RED team is doing great work. They need input that challenges them to reach even higher goals, but at the same time they also need to be congratulated for their achievements. Without the RED team we would be fussing over lesser issues of less capable cameras. It might seem ironic for Jim & team, but just the fact that many here are discussing these issues is a sign of the great progress made. Can't wait to see what EPIC will do to the world.

 

[Peter Majtan]

RED vs FILM

Film has ONLY two advantages over RED:

A) Dynamic Range (not for long)
B) Archival quality original negative that (when properly stored) will survive 100+ years (there are alternatives that in fact could exceed this)

Everything else speaks for RED (and other high-end digital cinema cameras), especially:

A) Resolution higher then 35 mm film
B) Being able to confirm that You have the shot "in the can" and how it looks like (unlike having to CAREFULLY store unexposed negative on the location, send it to a lab for expensive processing and having to either dump Daily print copy or organize for expensive telecine session before You get to see what is it that You have in the can...)
C) No need to do very expensive 4K scanning to have digital data available for DI post
D) Ability to re-use the recording media
E) Cost of equipment
F)...

... the list could go on and on and on...

It ultimately becomes a personal decision, but if You are just a "little" budget conscious (let's face it - who isn't?), You go digital. Period...