IRIDAS vs. COLOR

[roryhinds]

Don't you guys think that with Smoke @ $15k and Resolve @ $1k the land is changing for finishing work?

For $16k (software only) you can get a pretty powerful suite of tools.
Yes you don't get multi stream 4k but what you do get, you can do some pretty incredible work and for most people (not the super high end) these tools are prefect.

 

[Erik Franzén]

Allow me to totally derail and interrupt you guys - sorry, but I have a question. Roughly estimated, how much would colour grading eat up for a decent budget feature? I mean, what would hiring a pro colour grader or two cost at an average? Or would that be out of the question and you'd instead use a proper post-production facility? And if so, how much would that generally cost? Is it dependent on the running length of the footage or complexity or...?

Sorry again for derailing, but I got curious about this question and couldn't quite get it answered any other way.
Thanks!

 

[Jay Gannon]

Erik, it wont be cheap but no-one will quote you without a look at your footage, it depends on number of cuts complexity of grading and many other factors.

 

[jake blackstone]

I'm not Jake, but I've had experience with all of these systems as well. "Lustre vs. Baselight" is a rather useless question because both (as well as Resolve, Film Master, Pablo, and Assimilate Scratch, for that matter) will do anything a colorist needs to do. There isn't any "either/or" other than personal preference and better integration with other tools you might already have or be planning to add. A competent colorist will get nearly identical results on any of these systems. Some features, screen displays, and control panels will appeal more to some than others, but functionally, at least in terms of grading tools, there's little difference.

Basically, what you're asking is more a facility issue than a colorist issue because the real differences between these systems are in workflow integration, format compatibility, native format support, and some other things that are relevant to a facility but not necessarily to a colorist (other than the native format support).

And I'm not Mike
Yes, of coarse you're correct. The days of not being able to create a circle mask on Pogle are long gone.
With the variety of new tools available, it becomes more apparent the importance of a talented colorist and less of the tools used.
Facility integration become less of an important consideration for an individual user color correcting away in a basement or a garage. But then, he wouldn't be grading on Baselight or Lustre, more like Resolve, Color or Scratch.
Said that, with Lustre, in order to use anything other than DPX or TIFF, Wiretap needs to be set up and that is not a casual endeavor, not is it inexpensive. On the other hand, Baselight will happily import pretty much anything you throw at it.
On a facility level, Smoke and Lustre with a Wiretap is an unbeatable combo in terms of workflow and speed.
In terms of purely ergonomics preference, Baselight with Blackboard IMHO is close to a perfection.

 

[jake blackstone]

Allow me to totally derail and interrupt you guys - sorry, but I have a question. Roughly estimated, how much would colour grading eat up for a decent budget feature? I mean, what would hiring a pro colour grader or two cost at an average? Or would that be out of the question and you'd instead use a proper post-production facility? And if so, how much would that generally cost? Is it dependent on the running length of the footage or complexity or...?

Sorry again for derailing, but I got curious about this question and couldn't quite get it answered any other way.
Thanks!

Prices can range from "free" by someone starting out as a colorist to $250k and up at the top LA DI houses.

 

[Pasha Patriki]

Going back to hardware...

Going back to hardware...

I just read the whole thread - every post carried a valuable piece of info, thank you very much everyone participating!
I am a DP, and am currently setting up a smiple grading solution in my basement (just like discussed above!).
As resolve is not out yet, my no-budget choice TODAY is Color.
There was much discussion here about teh fact that Mac does not support SDI boards, so what is the ususal setup then, when you need to have your program monitor (Sony, Panasonic, Eizo or HP?), also a client monitor (a large professional Panasonic plasma is what I am thinking of), and two regular monitors for software interface and scopes.

CAn I have all these monitors runs via DVI-outs (I guess I would need two standrad GT120 graphics cards for that?) There's also an option to use Mini-DisplayPort to HDMI adapters and run all monitors through HDMI? Would it be 12-bit? oR am I stuck with 8-bit?

I've seen Mac tower setups with AJA Kona SDI cards, does that not address the issue of not being able to have an SDI monitor?

I am far from being a guru when it comes to I/O in post environment, so I am hoping someone can shed some light into my dark cave.


Cheers.

 

[Alex Hastings]

I just read the whole thread - every post carried a valuable piece of info, thank you very much everyone participating!
I am a DP, and am currently setting up a smiple grading solution in my basement (just like discussed above!).
As resolve is not out yet, my no-budget choice TODAY is Color.
There was much discussion here about teh fact that Mac does not support SDI boards, so what is the ususal setup then, when you need to have your program monitor (Sony, Panasonic, Eizo or HP?), also a client monitor (a large professional Panasonic plasma is what I am thinking of), and two regular monitors for software interface and scopes.

When they say SDI, they mean the SDI daughter to the GPU, like the NVIDIA 5800, has an option SDI board, so it becomes the NVIDIA QUADRO FX 5800 SDI. The enables the GPU to send any color changes directly from the GPU to the SDI and enabling realtime preview and sometimes realtime deliverables. It is basically an SDI extension of the GPU and has all the power the GPU provides out the SDI.

CAn I have all these monitors runs via DVI-outs (I guess I would need two standrad GT120 graphics cards for that?) There's also an option to use Mini-DisplayPort to HDMI adapters and run all monitors through HDMI? Would it be 12-bit? oR am I stuck with 8-bit?

Buy a GPU based on a system and what is specked out for optimal and recommended performance, not based on what's at a local PC or gaming shop. The GT120 is a very low end consumer card, its like a $100 card, you'll get about $100 worth of color grading out of it.

Filmlight's Baselight, which is the best color grader on the market has a really cool way of pulling 12bit from the DVI, it uses its own 12bit DVI drivers, then does a DVI to SDI conversion, so it doesn't have to wait for NVIDIA to update its SDI daughter drivers. Its very slick, but you have to own a Baselight. Around 90k for a complete solution. You should look into this system.

Not many other vendors can not get more than 8bit out of the DVI. The HDMI out of a GPU will not be what you want. It will either be at only the specs of the monitor or it will be an either or kinda of HDMI. Either HDMI or DVI. If you want HDMI get a Blackmagic Design: Intensity Pro HDMI board.

I've seen Mac tower setups with AJA Kona SDI cards, does that not address the issue of not being able to have an SDI monitor?

I am far from being a guru when it comes to I/O in post environment, so I am hoping someone can shed some light into my dark cave.


Cheers.

The AJA Kona3 has SDI, but it is a broadcast card, not a GPU card, the data goes from the GPU to the KONA then out to the broadcast monitor via the KONA, there is a little lag time, and doesn't have the same capabilities as the GPU taking the image out the SDI daughter.

You want simple Mac solution...

MacPro, FCP Suite, KONA3, ATI Radeon HD 4870 1GB(HACKED FROM PC--CAN FIND ON EBAY)

Then from there any monitors or monitoring solutions, like pro-plasma, Broadcast LCD, whatever it is you want.

This is as fast as a Apple Color suite as you can get.

 

[jake blackstone]

Filmlight's Baselight, which is the best color grader on the market has a really cool way of pulling 12bit from the DVI, it uses its own 12bit DVI drivers, then does a DVI to SDI conversion, so it doesn't have to wait for NVIDIA to update its SDI daughter drivers. Its very slick, but you have to own a Baselight. Around 90k for a complete solution. You should look into this system.

Actually , to my knowledge, the conversion is done by Truelight, which is available separately for purchase. BM card will provide essentially same functionality for the Resolve on the Mac, except, that the connection is done internally through the mother board. Truelight uses dual DVI output, delivered by standard GPU card inside the Baselight. There could be some special GPU drivers, that Filmlight may be employing, as they basically ran their own OS (FLOS variation of CentOS) on the Baselight, so they're free to do whatever they want. The main reason why Baselight is so versatile and flexible, is because FilmLight uses it's own OS for Baselight to run, hence very specific to FilmLight SDI solution.

 

[Pasha Patriki]

Do I need Kona?

Do I need Kona?

Thanks Alex!

The trick is that I need to have 4 monitors: 2 monitors for Color interface + 2 Preview video monitors.
Can I configure that way without Kona3? (assuming I don"t ever need to output HDSDI or SDI to a deck).
Would I need two 4870 cards - to run 4 monitors?
If I have two 4870's, would that speed up the Color rendering?

Or should I have one 4870 plus two Intensity Pro HDMI cards - the two HDMI cards would run the two external video monitors?

And pardon me being so uneducated - I am confused still whether I can get 10-bit or 12-bit HDMI. Can I? Or is it all 8-bit, DVI AND HDMI?

 

[Alex Hastings]

Thanks Alex!

The trick is that I need to have 4 monitors: 2 monitors for Color interface + 2 Preview video monitors.

Why do you need this?? Not sure why you need desktop monitors and 2 color preview off the computers. Can you explain why you need that?

If you need lots of preview monitors, you do not need extra cards, you can just do a loop through from one monitor to the next. So computer connects to monitor A, monitor A connects to monitor B, and so and and so on, forever up to monitor Z, etc.

Can I configure that way without Kona3? (assuming I don"t ever need to output HDSDI or SDI to a deck).
Would I need two 4870 cards - to run 4 monitors?
If I have two 4870's, would that speed up the Color rendering?

Don't think of the DVI out of the video card the same things as the broadcast signal out of the KONA card. You can, if you are a blind grader, meaning you can just grade using a high quality waveform and vectrascrope, but you need the signal to be accurate. The DVI out of your NVIDIA or ATI video is not setup that way, it is not accurate when using Apple COLOR. Neither OS X or Apple Color are setup to give you what you want out of the DVI. Other programs and OS's can do this, but don't try. I can tell by your posts this is not what you want, or the way to go.

Also I have no idea why you need so many video cards??

Or should I have one 4870 plus two Intensity Pro HDMI cards - the two HDMI cards would run the two external video monitors?
Yeah, That is a lot of stuff. So, maybe you should backtrack and explain what you want to do...

This is confusing, why do you need TWO HDMI cards??

And pardon me being so uneducated - I am confused still whether I can get 10-bit or 12-bit HDMI. Can I? Or is it all 8-bit, DVI AND HDMI?

Some computers can, some software can't, but you can't and Apple Color and the other grading tools you will probably be able to afford can't either. You can convert a 10bit signal to a 10bit HDMI signal. It was part of the HDMI 1.3 guidelines, but everything along that HDMI pipe has to be that level. Not an issue if using newer quality gear, but with consumer grade stuff its a gamble. BUT you will not be able to convert an DVI signal to something greater than 8bit out of OS X or Apple Color.

Why so many monitors again?

 

[Pasha Patriki]

Is it that many monitors? Two are computer monitors, one for the software and the second for the scopes. And then two video monitors - one for you and one for the client.
I am not a grader, but I will have real graders use the system. I am just in charge of building it. )

 

[roryhinds]

And I'm not Mike
... he wouldn't be grading on Baselight or Lustre, more like Resolve, Color or Scratch.

Baselight is around the same price as Scratch now with their price reduction.

 

[Alex Hastings]

Is it that many monitors? Two are computer monitors, one for the software and the second for the scopes. And then two video monitors - one for you and one for the client.
I am not a grader, but I will have real graders use the system. I am just in charge of building it. )

"Two are computer monitors, one for the software and the second for the scopes."

-- That is fine, Apple Color likes two monitors. This would be accomplished by your

1 x ATI Radeon HD 4870

If you are talking about another type of SCOPES on the LCD, something from Blackmagic or OmniTek. That is a different setup all together.

"And then two video monitors - one for you and one for the client"

-- Like I said you can just do a loop through from one signal to Monitor, then that monitor sends another signal to another monitor. This would be accomplished by your

1 x AJA KONA3

Also the KONA3 has two digital outputs, so you could do two 4:2:2 signals or one 4:4:4 signal.

Also know that the "And then two video monitors - one for you and one for the client" you talk about, can not be from an ATI or NVIDIA video card, they have to be from a Kona card.

Also I do not think that the blackmagic HDMI card will work with apple color, I might be wrong, but I would check to see if that is even supported with apple color.

I am not a grader, but I will have real graders use the system. I am just in charge of building it. )

Not to be rude, but you might want to have a grader spec out a system for you. Just ask one of the people who might use it how to build it for you. I think there is a little confusion as to what each video card does and why you need a Kona card. You might be better off having one of these potential graders show you, then you can see, hands on, how the systems operative. As a freelance colorist I would be able to tell if a system is setup weird or not built by an engineer or a colorist, I would be very hesitant to rent it.

Like I said before,

MacPro, FCP Suite, KONA3, ATI Radeon HD 4870 1GB

For broadcast monitors, for yourself and client, that is up to you.

 

[Alex Hastings]

Baselight is around the same price as Scratch now with their price reduction.

Yes Baselight pretty much rules. And you can get the HD Baselight for ~90k, for a complete system. Scratch can do things Baselight can't. Scratch has more conform tools, and in some cases people use Scratch to prep a project for Baselight, but as a grading tool, IMHO, Baselight is the best color grader out there. If you just want to color, Baselight can do it very well with an amazing toolset and workflow.

 

[jake blackstone]

Scratch has more conform tools

Not sure what tools you're referring to. Although, I find Scratch conforming toolset very capable and fast, I'm not aware of any capabilities in Scratch, that Baselight can't match or exceed. Multilayer timeline or AAF read capability among few things, that come to mind. V 5 may have some additional capabilities., I don't know.. Until recently Scratch was used for conforming for the Baselight, but with new Baselight pricing, it looks less of an advantage. And if FilmLight finally decides to offer their $1k version of Baselight on a Mac for sale, there will be no more need for conforming with something else.

Scratch can do things Baselight can't.

Like what?

 

[jake blackstone]

Yes Baselight pretty much rules. And you can get the HD Baselight for ~90k, for a complete system. Scratch can do things Baselight can't. Scratch has more conform tools, and in some cases people use Scratch to prep a project for Baselight, but as a grading tool, IMHO, Baselight is the best color grader out there. If you just want to color, Baselight can do it very well with an amazing toolset and workflow.

BTW, Baselight HD includes Blackboard control surface-the Ferrari of all panels. With Scratch you'd use just what, Wave or CP-200? To me personally, Blackboard control surface by itself is worth the price of admission. To my knowledge, a year ago, Blackboard was by itself selling for well over $50k. Or you can skip it and just use JL Cooper as a control surface and save yourself even more. I wonder, if at that price it also includes the Truelight.

 

[Alex Hastings]

Like what?

I am in no way defending scratch as a grading tool, and I don't see any advantage with Scratch over the Baselight HD as a grading tool. There are things in Scratch like painting and some of the layer effects that can be used for down and dirty composting. Baselight does not have any painting tools. There are probably some more, LUCAS could probably give you the laundry list.

 

[craigjkharris]

Iridas vs. Color....?
Iridas!

Iridas vs. Scratch....?
Iridas! (I think you will soon see SG & FC integrate RED Rocket support)
Iridas can ingest many different RAW formats from multiple cameras and costs considerably less than Scratch... AND Scratch which won't take as many camera formats. Don't forget that Iridas provides some of the most advanced and automated 3D tools of any system in the world - which is becoming more and more important. Scratch's 3D toolset is lame - no matter how much they try to sell themselves as a leader in 3D.

Iridas vs. Baselight....?
I think Baselight wins. Depending on budget though.
Iridas is making some incredible advances and additions to it's applications that continually bring it closer to a Baselight system.


Craig

 

[roryhinds]

What about Iridas vs Resolve?
Pretty hard to beat Resolve and now with its new price point... well...

 

[craigjkharris]

What about Iridas vs Resolve?
Pretty hard to beat Resolve and now with its new price point... well...

The Resolve is awesome too.

Iridas vs. Resolve 3D....?
Iridas


Iridas vs. Resolve for color correction....?
Probably Resolve for a better all around tool set and control panel.
What I do like about Iridas better though it it's ability to ingest many RAW formats.

Price Point?
By the time the Resolve system can do 2K-4K, you'll end up investing about 100K-120K.

Both rock and I'd like both in my suite