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Invest in fewer Cooke S4 lenses or a set of more S4 mini lenses? First PL primes set

E

Eirik Nicolai Heim

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Hi,

I have owned and been shooting with a Red Epic Mysterium, now Dragon, for 3 years and working mostly with Canon L optics. I am now in a position to acquire better glass and I am more and more into feature films instead of commercials, events and other kind of projects.
I love the look of the combination of Red and Cooke, but have not had the chance to test it myself.

Would it be wiser to go for a more fully S4 mini set than fewer S4s?

My company also does a lot of gimbal- and dronework freelance (Freefly movi and alta). Seems like the minis are smarter for that, but should I go for the S4 instead?

Last question. If I want to rent out the lenses, what would be the smartest choice?


Eirik Nicolai Heim
Crux Film
Tromsø, Norway
 
Interested too!
I love these lenses so much. The 14mm especially.

We've just finished a shoot with Cooke S4/i on the ronin (Xl extensions mandatory) and all went well.
 
I would always go for faster glass (s4's), but I think it's a personal thing. Do you seemed to use a lot of different L glass atm? If you do it's probably better to go for the full set. For renting probably a full S4 set would rent best. Saying that to have some wider s4 mini for gimbal and dronework can also work well for renting out and for you. And S4 and S4 mini are colour matched so not a Problem to mix..
So there is no right or wrong I don't think... But it all depends on your needs and the local rental/production market. But check which rental houses have which Cookes...
S4's and the minis are amazing and are as sharp as Zeiss but not as much in your face. saying that the skin tones are great on them ;)
 
If you are unsure then rent both, and make an informed decision based on your own needs. You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive would you?

I would also poll you potential rental base to find out their rental needs.
 
S4 mini's are a budget option, good for short films, some commercial, green screen work etc, the look more or less the same as the S4 but that extra stop in fiction is a big deal for many. So I would say that for renting and for wanting to do feature films, defiantly go S4, they are loved by so many cinematographers across the globe. for cinema use T2 is almost a must, for other stuff T2.8 should be fine.

Having said, the bare minimum I see a set of S4 is 5 lenses, less then that and maybe you should just wait a bit longer and then get them.

P.S While doing drone work, just slap an EF lens on ;-)
 
Eirik Nicolai Heim said:
Hi,

I have owned and been shooting with a Red Epic Mysterium, now Dragon, for 3 years and working mostly with Canon L optics. [...]
Click to expand...

I would prioritize this way: if drones and gimbals are the top priority and if flight time really defines your business, go with the minis. If you have a wider range of priorities, then the question depends on whether your DRAGON sits in an EPIC (DSMC) body or a WEAPON (DSMC2) body. I upgraded my DRAGONs to WEAPONs and still cannot believe how much better the image quality is (especially in the ISO 800-2000 range). I would gladly use a DSMC2 body with f2.8 glass in preference to a DSMC body with f2.0 glass, because the former will out-perform the latter in low light.
 
Thank you all for helping out.

My dragon is sitting in the epic at the moment. But since I do not have any other glass than L lenses, I would really like to get better glass before upgrading. I will do that to later sometime.

There are actually now other rental houses in these parts of Norway. We all have to rent and get the lenses sent from Oslo and that adds like 1 or 2 days extra just for transport. That is another reason why I want to get good lenses and hopefully get to rent them out. There are more and more productions being shot in Northern Norway because of endless of great locations and international productions can now get founding too.

I am considering this option now. Stick with the EF lenses on the aerials. I tend to not use that many lenses, never more than 3-4. I have some good Canon telezooms for that kind of work. So maybe I will go for a set of 5 S4's and maybe 1 mini in the wide end and the other end?
Is that wise or just stupid? Than I can fly a wide mini if I have to. Or should I just stay with S4?

Seems like I will be able to test booth in Ocotber.

Editing my post again.

I see from others and now I checked the Cooke website. The mini S4 have better coverage for the Dragon and 6k. than S4. S4 and wider than 32 mm is maybe a problem then.
 
Last edited:
Hey everyone.

I feel like I could be of some help on this, as I currently own two sets of Mini S4's. Both lens sets are amazing. I went with Cooke Mini's for budget reasons, but Cooke hasn't treated these lenses like red-headed step children. They have been amazing with releasing new accessories (like uncoated elements) and focal lengths (21, 40, 65 and 135) as time goes on. I'm sure there will be a couple more great surprises in store for Mini S4's in the future, and you have to love the commitment of Cooke on this.

S4's are amazing, and if you can go for them, I'd say go for it. But here are some pointers from my point of view.




Pro's:
Cost: The Mini S4's are about half the cost per lens. This is super.... duper.... important.

Coverage: With the exception of maybe one focal length (I think the 65mm?) the Mini S4's cover more sensor area when compared to equal focal length of S4's. I have data on this somewhere. PM if interested. You are safer shooting with Mini's on Dragon 6k and Epic 5k.


Uncoated Elements: Cooke sells uncoated front elements and uncoated rear elements for their Mini series. These can be easily exchanged by a lens tech or a careful and knowledgable person with the right tools and some training / instructions. Uncoated elements for Cooke S4's at this time aren't offered or sold by Cooke. I'm sure you could do it, but it would be a more challenging endeavor.

Weight and Size: Cooke Mini S4's are smaller in girth (Mini is 87mm front diameter vs 110mm S4) and in weight, although sometimes by very small amounts.

Screw in Filters: If wanting to fly Cookes on drones or gimbals, not only does the slight advantage in size and weight work to your advantage, but it's little known that Cooke Mini S4's, since they are 87mm front diameter, accept the very common screw in filter thread size of 82mm right on the lens. I bought a set of Firecrest IRND's in 82mm and have a pola, clear, 1/8 and 1/4 BlackPro Mist that screw right onto the Mini's. The Cooke S4's are 110mm, so you have to use the much less common 105mm screw in filter size. A limitation to your choices and availability, IMO.


Cons:
Speed: Yes they are one stop slower. And that is important to some. Not so much to me.

Selection? The question mark is because the Cooke Mini S4's have ten focal lengths to choose from which is fantastic however the Cooke S4's have an unbelievable amount of choices. Mini S4's have 18, 21, 25, 32, 40, 50, 65, 75, 100 and 135. The Cooke S4's have 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 25, 27, 32, 35, 40, 50, 65, 75, 100, 135, 150, 180, and 300. So yes there are more wonderful choices, importantly on the wide side. However if using Red cams with larger sensors, the 18mm at 5k, 5.5k can get pretty wide, whereas wide Cooke S4's might not even cover. In some instances the Cooke Mini lenses can be as wide as some of the wider S4's because you can use them on larger sensors. I have some data on it somewhere. If using Arri cameras or cameras with S35mm sensors, the wider S4's are worth it. If using Reds with larger FoV, I can make the Mini 18mm stretch pretty far.... 5k on Epic and 5.5k on Dragon.

Client Base: Who are your clients? Big jobs are still demanding S4's. They can pay the higher price, get the faster stop, and have the selection. They are also better known lenses. If your clients who hire you or rent your gear can pay $800/day for S4's, just get the S4's. If they can't, you should probably reconsider... no use buying expensive glass when your clients only have a budget for $350/day for lenses.
 
Great summary, Ryan! I think you have to really analyze your individual market and think about what makes sense there. I bet every single shooter on RU would love to be able to shoot with S4's or Master Primes, or Summilux-C's, but most of us can't afford to pay the day rates, let alone the cost to purchase.
 
Lens selection is based on so many factors that it's pretty hard to predict what any particular production might be looking for. I would also note in the S4 vs mini S4 debate, that with the quality/speed of modern zooms, why would I take the time hit of swapping primes if I can't get T2 or better? The "L" Canons are nice for drone work, shallow DOF and affordable. Matching your lens set with the specific creative desires of productions that come to your area is a huge crapshoot. The Cooke look is sweet, but if it does't match a particular show's goals...

Owning a set of primes due to practical considerations based on geography is understandable - it's also a recipe for putting a lot of pressure on you to keep them busy or get eaten by the payments. Would suggest a conversation with an Oslo rental house to see if they would be willing to rent out your set for a revenue split when you aren't using them. If yes, then I'd listen closely to their advice on which set would work most frequently.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Lens selection is based on so many factors that it's pretty hard to predict what any particular production might be looking for. I would also note in the S4 vs mini S4 debate, that with the quality/speed of modern zooms, why would I take the time hit of swapping primes if I can't get T2 or better? The "L" Canons are nice for drone work, shallow DOF and affordable. Matching your lens set with the specific creative desires of productions that come to your area is a huge crapshoot. The Cooke look is sweet, but if it does't match a particular show's goals...

Owning a set of primes due to practical considerations based on geography is understandable - it's also a recipe for putting a lot of pressure on you to keep them busy or get eaten by the payments. Would suggest a conversation with an Oslo rental house to see if they would be willing to rent out your set for a revenue split when you aren't using them. If yes, then I'd listen closely to their advice on which set would work most frequently.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Great insight Blair. Over a certain total cost, a great strategy I've heard is parking gear at a rental house for the revenue split Blair brought up. Helps keep the kit in good shape and maybe get some dough to put towards your payments when you aren't using. Lots of companies do shipping now for this kind of thing so wonder if there's a way to make that work.
 
To add to the list of Cooke Mini Pro's and cons, Cooke just announced new mounts that can be swapped. Canon EF, Nikon F, m4/3, and Emount.

I'd rather have PL mount adapters on E mount and m4/3 cameras, but I say bring the EF! It's not better than PL but can help people when they are stuck with an EF mount camera.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Hey everyone.

I feel like I could be of some help on this, as I currently own two sets of Mini S4's. Both lens sets are amazing. I went with Cooke Mini's for budget reasons, but Cooke hasn't treated these lenses like red-headed step children. They have been amazing with releasing new accessories (like uncoated elements) and focal lengths (21, 40, 65 and 135) as time goes on. I'm sure there will be a couple more great surprises in store for Mini S4's in the future, and you have to love the commitment of Cooke on this.

S4's are amazing, and if you can go for them, I'd say go for it. But here are some pointers from my point of view.




Pro's:
Cost: The Mini S4's are about half the cost per lens. This is super.... duper.... important.

Coverage: With the exception of maybe one focal length (I think the 65mm?) the Mini S4's cover more sensor area when compared to equal focal length of S4's. I have data on this somewhere. PM if interested. You are safer shooting with Mini's on Dragon 6k and Epic 5k.


Uncoated Elements: Cooke sells uncoated front elements and uncoated rear elements for their Mini series. These can be easily exchanged by a lens tech or a careful and knowledgable person with the right tools and some training / instructions. Uncoated elements for Cooke S4's at this time aren't offered or sold by Cooke. I'm sure you could do it, but it would be a more challenging endeavor.

Weight and Size: Cooke Mini S4's are smaller in girth (Mini is 87mm front diameter vs 110mm S4) and in weight, although sometimes by very small amounts.

Screw in Filters: If wanting to fly Cookes on drones or gimbals, not only does the slight advantage in size and weight work to your advantage, but it's little known that Cooke Mini S4's, since they are 87mm front diameter, accept the very common screw in filter thread size of 82mm right on the lens. I bought a set of Firecrest IRND's in 82mm and have a pola, clear, 1/8 and 1/4 BlackPro Mist that screw right onto the Mini's. The Cooke S4's are 110mm, so you have to use the much less common 105mm screw in filter size. A limitation to your choices and availability, IMO.


Cons:
Speed: Yes they are one stop slower. And that is important to some. Not so much to me.

Selection? The question mark is because the Cooke Mini S4's have ten focal lengths to choose from which is fantastic however the Cooke S4's have an unbelievable amount of choices. Mini S4's have 18, 21, 25, 32, 40, 50, 65, 75, 100 and 135. The Cooke S4's have 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 25, 27, 32, 35, 40, 50, 65, 75, 100, 135, 150, 180, and 300. So yes there are more wonderful choices, importantly on the wide side. However if using Red cams with larger sensors, the 18mm at 5k, 5.5k can get pretty wide, whereas wide Cooke S4's might not even cover. In some instances the Cooke Mini lenses can be as wide as some of the wider S4's because you can use them on larger sensors. I have some data on it somewhere. If using Arri cameras or cameras with S35mm sensors, the wider S4's are worth it. If using Reds with larger FoV, I can make the Mini 18mm stretch pretty far.... 5k on Epic and 5.5k on Dragon.

Client Base: Who are your clients? Big jobs are still demanding S4's. They can pay the higher price, get the faster stop, and have the selection. They are also better known lenses. If your clients who hire you or rent your gear can pay $800/day for S4's, just get the S4's. If they can't, you should probably reconsider... no use buying expensive glass when your clients only have a budget for $350/day for lenses.
Click to expand...

Hi Ryan,

In term of optical quality, Am I correct to understand both Cooke Mini and Cooke S4 share the same quality at 2.8 and stop down ? I also undecide between few Ultra Prime or a set of Cooke Mini S4 for my rental business.

Thanks,
 
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