Industry Standard.

[Ryan De Franco]

On set last week.... 35mm 1st assistant vs Red 1st Assistant... friendly banter:

35mm AC: Panavision and Arri spent a collective century fine tuning accessories. DSMC might be great for tinkering owner/operators, but hell for ACs on a multi-camera shoot when something doesn't work.

Epic-M AC: Yes, but the Red One eventually fell into a standardized rental package with a mix of Red and Element Technica accessories. A year from now the Epic will as well.

What do you think the standard Scarlet or Epic package ought to have? Both EVF and LCD, pro i/o module? Or will Action products etc end up defining the new standard set-up?

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Hate to state the obvious, but it depends on the job. The important thing is to use your prep time to find the right AKS to make your rigs work for you. For example, I can see where if you need to work in tight spaces like a car interior the Red touch LCD would be very useful, whereas if you're living on a jib then the Redmote will play. It's all about speed and efficiency and keeping it as simple as possible.

On a recent single camera job, we needed the Epic to work in three modes with Ultraprime set and 300mm Canon FD PL converted prime: stripped mode for car int with just lens, side handle, and on-board monitor; lightweight easy rig mode with evf and v-mount batteries, and compact studio mode on sticks. We went with Epic quick release plate with 19mm rod system (we would have preferred LW15 for primes but it wasn't available), LMB5, FF4, VF APU plate, ET EVF bracket, top handle.

On another Epic job which was all handheld with Alura 18-80 zoom, we had a Red v-mount plate for more back weight, portabrace shoulder pad just in front of the body, old style Red LCD with a long noga arm by the matte box, Colberg hangrips up front, lightweight Chrosziel MB, and Preston single channel F/I. As you can see, all different AKS based on the requirements of each job.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The trend towards smaller and more modular camera systems is inevitable. That aside, the 35mm AC is correct in that there is a long history of accessory development and standardization at play in the industry, but he was ignoring the fact that the latest camera innovations from RED, Canon, even Arri which differ from the norm of the last 25+ years, can still be dropped right into those configurations if/ when desired.

More modular concepts like the RED DSMC system or the ARRI Alexa-M system are about leveraging technology and down-sizing where applicable. This trend will continue. The smaller, more modular approach gives more creative freedom and options as far as configuring a camera setup. I believe that any truly good AC will recognize this and be able to think outside whatever box of parts he is used to working with and be able to make something better.

Satsuki Murashige is right in saying that all this depends on the job. You build your camera package, including lenses and accessories, based on the job at hand. You want a camera that can go fully hand-held in a compact way like a large DSLR or medium format system? No problem. You want to load it up with all sorts of other stuff -- mattebox, cinetape, optimo 12X zoom, 12" monitor, geared head cruising on a dolly... No problem. That latter config can be done using all those same Arri, Panavision, etc.. accessories that cinematographers have been using for the last 100 years or whatever. Nothing new here. Sure, you need to equip the camera with the appropriate baseplate to get the right rod mount for your application... Oh, wait, you have to do that with every camera that's currently on the market, whether it says Arri, Aaton, Red, or whatever on it.

 

[Imran Farouk]

Well, I still end up bumping into 'DPs' or "Directors" even Camera operators and ACs that seem to be still on the boarder and say that the EPIC is still not ready for the industry,

I do put the ' ' in because these aren't people as credible as say the likes of most of the people on these boards or Peter Jackson and the rest but its interesting that even after this long people are still have issues with placing faith in RED...its weird...

I'd have expected most to jump at the opportunity to work with the digital equivalent of film and with Sony now on the 4K wagon, I'm curious if people would say the same about a Sony cam or Arri if they were doing 4K...

Even the idea of RED Electronic lenses seems to baffle people at the potential of that happening...

Modular is totally going to be the industry standard though and RED is well ahead of the pact in some ways, once they start shipping modules and so forth out in crazy amounts, no longer backordered and can announce and product have ability to purchase it on the deadline given, I think it'll be REALLY hard to not see these guys as close to being the 'go to' guys for modular cameras and the future of cinema.

That said, the fine will start when rest of the big guns start trying to out do RED...

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

ap makes the needed cine-connector module,
with the tactical plate and cage you can go cinestyle easily.
i wish that the redmote really works without losing connection up to 6 meters.
I wait what will happen when red designs the 3D-Blood-rig
20k....special item for epic and scarlet...

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

ah and i like the red workflow more than the alexa workflow,
because everybody is shooting in logc anyway and need to convert again anyway.
i wish the red rocket would only cost 1000 dollars....so every post house and nle suite gets one and the workflow
argument would turn into something else. (i have a rocket and honestly say in a fcp/avid workflow without one you can get depressed hehe)

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Couple of things going on here. I hear about this all the time on set.

1. RED made some choices that go against the grain when it comes to ACs who are used to working a certain way. Some things they went standard on, others they didn't. Ultimately it's RED choice. People will either adapt or they won't. I have found that many adapt, even if they do so kicking and screaming.

2. There is no doubt that there is anti-RED vibes on certain sets, and the AC department tends to be the most guilty of it. For some, maybe it was related to my first point. For others, they are loyal to what they know and many of them know Arri and 35mm industry standard tools like the back of their hand. When RED came along and said we're going to do some things that are different, some people took exception to it. Some people didn't like how RED came out of the gate. I still hear things like "All Hype, little substance". Engaging in a discussion about RED vs. Alexa/film/F65 is not for the faint of heart. I just avoid it because I don't really care about that kind of thing. I just want to know what we're using that day, and anything relevant to the tools we're using. But some people seem to have a strange hatred of anything RED. They certainly don't have to like the camera, but I do wonder what agendas are at play when I see people go to the extent they do to bash. Maybe they just like complaining and bashing in general.

There are many ACs I work with who are very professional, and they work with what they got. They don't care what the camera is, they just need to make it work for the shoot, whatever it takes. I respect that. To me, that's the right attitude. There is a time and a place for making suggestions to manufacturers to improve things and to see it from their perspective. That's how things improve.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

There's no harm in doing things the traditional way based on production needs. Epic drops cleanly into a 15mm or 19mm setup pretty much like any other camera. On the other hand, I think much of the industry still hasn't realized what the Red team has accomplished. I see pictures of Epic with enormous fluid or gear heads, double batteries, massive matte boxes, Fiz boxes, and lock boxes hanging all over it. You might as well be using a 535 or Millennium, size wise.

For me, the future is modular. I want to take full advantage of the size, weight, and modularity of Epic. I bought the quick release system so I can pop the camera, lens, and side handle off the sliding base plate and use it as an electronic viewfinder - what you see is what you get. Pop it back into the quick release and it's in studio mode. Attach a bolt on quick release to a steadicam, and pop it in. Strip the camera down in 30 seconds and rig it to the dash for car interiors. Handheld at 90FPS, circling an actor is in a different universe than what went before. This is revolutionary stuff and most people aren't seeing it yet.

I'm determined to try and keep all the extra big and heavy stuff off the Epic (I hear my ACs and the sound guys hollering already), so we don't need to double team the camera to move it to the other side of the room.

Others will raise objections to this strategy. Different strokes. Small changes everything.

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

There is no doubt that there is anti-RED vibes on certain sets, and the AC department tends to be the most guilty of it. For some, maybe it was related to my first point. For others, they are loyal to what they know and many of them know Arri and 35mm industry standard tools like the back of their hand. When RED came along and said we're going to do some things that are different, some people took exception to it. Some people didn't like how RED came out of the gate. I still hear things like "All Hype, little substance". Engaging in a discussion about RED vs. Alexa/film/F65 is not for the faint of heart. I just avoid it because I don't really care about that kind of thing. I just want to know what we're using that day, and anything relevant to the tools we're using. But some people seem to have a strange hatred of anything RED. They certainly don't have to like the camera, but I do wonder what agendas are at play when I see people go to the extent they do to bash. Maybe they just like complaining and bashing in general.

I think a big part of it is reliability issues with Red cameras (perceived or real). The bigger the job, the more pressure there is to make sure the cameras run without a hitch. The AC who has primarily worked on film jobs up til now probably has worked on more big budget jobs and is thus more likely to make conservative choices about what gear they will use. It's only human nature.

 

[Billy Summers]

The stupid part of this argument is that the Epic utilizes many of these "over a collective century" of developed accessories everyday it's on set!

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

DSMC might be great for tinkering owner/operators, but hell for ACs on a multi-camera shoot when something doesn't work.

This can be said about anything. "Man, that Ferrari engine works great. But I don't know how to fix it when it breaks down."

A lack of a willingness to learn about new technology is not a counter-argument to the proliferation of new technology. I have learned an un-countable amount about Red, digital sensors, camera rigs, and more, just in the past 3 months of stalking these forums. There are resources out there. Resources that, once assimilated, help avoid and overcome issues, including (but not limited to) things not working on set. I say this with confidence, because I have already helped overcome issues. So it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

[paulherrin]

anyone who thinks that this is not an ever-growing, ever-changing business needs to seriously stop and think about what they're doing right now. the 'standards' are progressing. they always have been. welcome, 2012...

 

[Blair Thornton]

Agreed Timothy! You're right, the modular ability to re-structure the RED for each shoot is revolutionary and one of it's best feature most people don't recognize.

 

[Ted Parkes]

It is by far the most versatile camera I have ever worked with. Is it perfect …no. Is it the right camera for ever job …no. Is it an amazing camera that can work for a crazy number or different environments.. Yes! As an owner operator it the camera that makes the most sense… hand down.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

What do you think the standard Scarlet or Epic package ought to have? Both EVF and LCD, pro i/o module? Or will Action products etc end up defining the new standard set-up?

RED acquired Element Technica. This is far more significant than people think.

I have known Stephen Pizzo and his team since they made they first accessory for the RED ONE. I use to test and provide feedback on many of their products before they became public and shipped.

The Element Technica team can SIGNIFICANTLY improve the DSMC usability, functionality and "perception".