Indie Level Camera Movement Advice

[Josh Wilkinson]

I'm looking for some advice on adding camera movement back into my work, when i bought my Red (from an fs700) last year I didn't expect so many issues rigging it. Being stuck to sticks or handheld has held me back creatively somewhat.

I've been debating between picking up a Dana Dolly or a Ronin for the last month or 2. I've used both (a couple of times) and for my current client requests/projects, either would work fine.
I shoot mostly Music Videos and Commercial type work, $1000-$5000 level projects.

The advice I'm looking for is two-fold.
I'm looking for someone who has used these side by side more, Is the extra hassle of using a Dana really worth the extra consistency? Gimbals in general, without a vest system and AC, are somewhat of a mixed bag for me already. I just worry having a dolly on set (my current shoots are in general just me or me and a couple grips) will slow me down too much.

Second, as an owner-operator DP looking to push up the market in the next year or 2. Which would potentially make me more hire-able to (slightly) bigger productions?

 

[Ben Scott]

Can I ask why you're stuck on sticks with the Red?

Also, buy gear for the clients you have, not the clients you think it might bring in - rarely works that way.

A Ronin will add considerable setup time to your shoot day and with a DSMC1 setup will be quite backbreaking by the end of the day without some sort of easyrig/readyrig support system.

Dollies like the Dana or Kessler Shuttle Dolly are relatively fast to set up and pull down by comparison and are fantastic tools, although they don't offer the same sort of movement as a gimbal.

Have you thought about a dedicated lightweight camera on a smaller gimbal for those shots with your Red getting the main shots?

 

[Sergio Perez]

If you are a small operation, need fast and consistent results, I suggest a Microdolly. As for movement, I own a Ronin but due to setup time I always go back to my steadicam (Glidecam) .

Here's some Glidecam X10 and Devin Graham arm work on a Helium (mixed with Inspire 1, 2, and ocasional tripod and dolly shots.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7GUejTXivg

 

[Josh Wilkinson]

The scarlet exceeded weight capacity of all of the starter support gear I had.

Like I said, either would work fine for my current clients. Most just want some cheap production value to help their video stand out.

I have thought about using a smaller camera, but honestly I spent all this money get one of the best imaging machines on the planet, I'm rather reluctant to slap some Sony footage in the mix unless the production really calls for it.

1 vote for the Dana.
Really appreciate the feedback Ben.

 

[Josh Wilkinson]

If you are a small operation, need fast and consistent results, I suggest a Microdolly. As for movement, I own a Ronin but due to setup time I always go back to my steadicam (Glidecam) .

Here's some Glidecam X10 and Devin Graham arm work on a Helium (mixed with Inspire 1, 2, and ocasional tripod and dolly shots.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7GUejTXivg

I had a glidecam with my FS700, which was awesome. Did some really great work with it, but my scarlet config right now is 14lbs. Even if I stripped it down to under 10, I don't think my arm could take more than very short bursts. Sadly, my budget cant stretch to get a high end model/vest combo.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I had a glidecam with my FS700, which was awesome. Did some really great work with it, but my scarlet config right now is 14lbs. Even if I stripped it down to under 10, I don't think my arm could take more than very short bursts. Sadly, my budget cant stretch to get a high end model/vest combo.

I think the X10 arm and vest goes for about 1700 USD which is a great price. The Microdolly I suggested is more expensive but its truly great in terms of setup time and built quality, and can be managed by one person (I've done it)

The Ronin is good , but really heavy if not in the Ronin MX size. Also, you will need an extra operator with the remote to make smooth movements, or you'll get a laggy turn if you attempt anything similar to steadicam. It also does give a " First person shooter" effect to some shots because it stabilises the camera but not yourself when you walk . People have mastered this movement somehow but honestly I just can't pull off " non Doom" like movements when on the ronin (first generation.)

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Dana Dolly is a great tool and probably better for small crews than a Ronin as it is quick to setup, easy to pop on and off, and doesn't require wireless video and follow focus systems. It's also much more scalable between different cameras. Ronin and Movi can be limiting if you suddenly need to work with a PL zoom lens or a longer camera build. If you go with the gimbal, be prepared to spend money on accessories like battery mounting plates and long flex cables to make the system work. Also be prepared to spend time re-rigging the camera between setups. You won't get the best out of a gimbal system without lots of operating seat time.

 

[Tom Bostick]

Dana dolly sounds like a better bet for you right now.

They are so much faster to setup than a gimbal, and you really need an AC to pull focus for you while running them in my experience.

In addition you will quickly see the need for a support system like the ready rig if doing many shots a day.

 

[Craig Lees]

I'm Hi Josh,

Strip it down more maybe? Bomb EVF or Touch 5.0, SideHandle with redvolt, SSD module, sigma art 18-35 and nothing else is pretty light.

I actually shot an anamorphic commercial with that setup handheld after pfaffing with a ronin for hours and with a little over cranking & shooting action safe for post stabilisation, it looked pretty much like a ronin shot anyway even with me pulling focus on the lens (at T2.8 anamorphic too!) and the client was very happy (I'm pretty steady anyway). I'll see if I can find the final thing if it's out yet.

I think there's something to be said about stripping down the scarlet / epic and practising using your body to stabilise and frame shots (like a slider / motion parallax effect). Sure they'll always be a bit of wobble but post stabilisation will help with this if you shoot it right & get good at focussing whilst you move & simultaneously looking at your monitor or as I prefer, use a Bomb EVF with SideHandle setup and tuck it tight into my eye so it almost becomes extension of my head (keeping in steady and horizontal) and stabilising with my legs and knees as I walk /track in.

And expect lots more setups in your shooting day / save yourself time to light properly later!

Of course if not self-shooting and you have an assistant / AC which it sounds like most of the time you don't, your own Ronin balanced beforehand for your red with cine milled extension arms, and an assistant to pull focus for you with sigma art 18-35 & FoolControl is a great solution though you'll need an easyrig / readirig for heavier glass setups. It's just when you switch camera systems when balancing gimbals becomes a pain though the ronin is definitely the most forgiving.

I prefer sliders to track & Dollys as they're just easier / quicker. There's a company in Portsmouth UK that make great ones more cost effectively than Ronford Baker.

Though again IMHO one of the truly great things about red cameras since the Red One days is stripping them down. Why are the Alexa mini's are doing so well?!? ; )

There's a great article somewhere here on Reduser about Matthew Libatique stripping down the epic progressively more and more on Straight Outta Compton as the shoot went on. Respect!

Craig Lees
UK

 

[Josh Wilkinson]

Dana Dolly is a great tool and probably better for small crews than a Ronin as it is quick to setup, easy to pop on and off, and doesn't require wireless video and follow focus systems. It's also much more scalable between different cameras. Ronin and Movi can be limiting if you suddenly need to work with a PL zoom lens or a longer camera build. If you go with the gimbal, be prepared to spend money on accessories like battery mounting plates and long flex cables to make the system work. Also be prepared to spend time re-rigging the camera between setups. You won't get the best out of a gimbal system without lots of operating seat time.

This is basically the conclusion I'm coming to. Setup time on my level of productions isn't an issue, But I'm hopefully going to new york for a few music videos this year.

Realistically, the Ronin for me would be for doing about 5ft complex dolly moves quickly for performances or b-roll on corporates

....Of course if not self-shooting and you have an assistant / AC which it sounds like most of the time you don't, your own Ronin balanced beforehand for your red with cine milled extension arms, and an assistant to pull focus for you with sigma art 18-35 & FoolControl is a great solution though you'll need an easyrig / readirig for heavier glass setups. It's just when you switch camera systems when balancing gimbals becomes a pain though the ronin is definitely the most forgiving.....

I shoot mostly handheld like you described now. But that doesnt work for a lot of my commercial stuff or some music videos.

I'm not a fan of sliders for day to day stuff, just doesn't add enough to the type of stuff I'm doing. I rented the Dana on my last shoot and the 8ft track was about perfect for me.




Here is an example of a video I would've loved to add some controlled movement in - https://vimeo.com/187708369

 

[Justin McAleece]

Unfortunately they are two different tools and you kinda need both. I use the Dana Dolly waaaay more. It's fast, I can move it arond by myself and for a lot of shots it's just perfect. It won't do a lot of things that the Ronin can do, but it's also way less work to use and can give you some great production value for very little headache. Plus, it's cheap! I would say get the Dana Dolly and let it pay for itself and rent the Ronin when you know the project requires it. FWIW I have mixed in GH4 Ronin footage with my Dragon stuff and though it's not optimal, it often works quite well.