In the search of a workflow

[Videoteque73]

I don't have a Red one and I am not on the waiting list. I may get a Scarlett if it suits my needs.

Reading this forum, I still don't understand what's going on. Everybody seems to be searching for a workflow, but I think it's the due of RED and it's partners (Apple??, Assimilate) to provide their clients with a workflow. A camcorder, no matter how great it may be, it's not more than an (expensive) doorstop without a way to work with the images it makes.

Can RED (and partners) post some clear workflows so we don't have to investigate thousands of posts??? Can they provide an exact list of what works and what not??? Can people buy a Red One without the fear of it becoming a very nice, but very expensive doorstop??? :construction:

It seems to me that the transparence which we all appreciate from RED, in the case of the workflow, is turning into a mess, which no one wants.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

It's a little more complicated then that. The REDCode enables us to shoot in 4K , which is great but the workflow does only exist in high end production.

Most of the guys who has bought the RED can't afford to end in 4K but we all want to. Therefor there's a hunt for figuring out how to make this possible. Only way of doing so is keeping the REDCode all the way to the finish line, which is possible right now, yet still not.

Last problem is storage and playback in the end - uncompressed 4K files are HUGE and demands a lot of storage and bandwith.
Apple and Assimilate (scratch, redcine) has so far made workflow possible but it has it's restrains for most of them out there.

check out this talk and you'll understand some more

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9231

fred

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Reading this forum, I still don't understand what's going on. Everybody seems to be searching for a workflow, but I think it's the due of RED and it's partners (Apple??, Assimilate) to provide their clients with a workflow. A camcorder, no matter how great it may be, it's not more than an (expensive) doorstop without a way to work with the images it makes.

Welcome to the world of professional video (and cinema). RED is trying to provide us with a workflow. It takes time. There are already viable ways to work with RED, but many people are not comfortable or even capable to use such a workflow due to financial or infrastructure constraints.

What many people coming from the prosumer or consumer markets don't realize is that most new camera systems arrive without a workflow. It is often months before a good workflow materializes, sometimes years. Panasonic released the HVX200 camcorder which extended DVCPROHD to included 1080p24 and some other modes that are not official format specs. No one supported it right off... It took months. And that's a prosumer camera, not a top-tier cinema camera.

Currently, those who work in a film-based DI workflow will find RED almost drops right in. You can shoot RED, do a one-light color correct in CC and "develop" your negative as you process out to DPX, TIFF, EXR, etc.. files. You get QT-based proxies or you can generate proxy clips of your own in REDCINE in other formats like ProRes, DVCPROHD, DV, etc.. That essentially gets RED to the same point as a film camera would be at after the film is developed and scanned to DPX, or other desired formats.

Of course, much of this is still buggy. The camera and tools are still in beta form. More streamlined workflows will present themselves in time to make end to end production with RED a much easier task. Not everyone operates on a DI-style workflow and some who do may not want to if they can avoid it. Eventually, we should be able to drop R3D files directly into popular NLE softwares and edit away, then output in full quality all from within the comfort of Premiere, FCP, Avid, etc.. The world of RED production will be an entirely different place by the end of the year. Cameras didn't ship until August 30th of '07... We're still less than 6 months into this.

 

[laguun]

Welcome to the world of professional video (and cinema). RED is trying to provide us with a workflow. It takes time. There are already viable ways to work with RED, but many people are not comfortable or even capable to use such a workflow due to financial or infrastructure constraints.

I agree, and lets add that many editors, colorists, producers and vfx guys are simply not willing to change their decade-long standing methodoly to fir the source, but expect the source to work in a way which supports their specific way.

What many people coming from the prosumer or consumer markets don't realize is that most new camera systems arrive without a workflow. It is often months before a good workflow materializes, sometimes years. Panasonic released the HVX200 camcorder which extended DVCPROHD to included 1080p24 and some other modes that are not official format specs. No one supported it right off... It took months. And that's a prosumer camera, not a top-tier cinema camera.

Jeff, here i disagree.
Every single camera i bought in my life, be it 16, 35 (d)beta(sp) or hdcam had a functional workflow, with issues in the first 6 months, but all had a way of going full master with TC & EDL.

There are few exceptions, most prominent the mentioned panasonic P2 and the very first HDV from JVC.

But even XDCAM startet with VCR-syled types, so therefore.

I think its cruicial to mention that reds own redcode raw workflow adds a new metaphor to post. It adds the "lab", which was in former time somewhere between shooting and post, now it can be both - and its therefore more challengingfor red to integrate the "ideal" pipeline.

Currently, those who work in a film-based DI workflow will find RED almost drops right in. You can shoot RED, do a one-light color correct in CC and "develop" your negative as you process out to DPX, TIFF, EXR, etc.. files.

Hmmmmm, mixed feelings here - TC integration, pulllist and EDL matchback are still somewhat more painful than with 35mm or hdcam.

You get QT-based proxies or you can generate proxy clips of your own in REDCINE in other formats like ProRes, DVCPROHD, DV, etc.. That essentially gets RED to the same point as a film camera would be at after the film is developed and scanned to DPX, or other desired formats.

We dont get QT proxies, besides one FCP all 7 NLE dont get QT proxies. All flagships of all high-end marketleaders (discreet smoke, avid ds nitris, quantel Q series, dvs clipster etc...) still dont get QT proxies, and it will be pretty tough to implement them by red as well.

Of course, much of this is still buggy. The camera and tools are still in beta form. More streamlined workflows will present themselves in time to make end to end production with RED a much easier task. Not everyone operates on a DI-style workflow and some who do may not want to if they can avoid it. Eventually, we should be able to drop R3D files directly into popular NLE softwares and edit away, then output in full quality all from within the comfort of Premiere, FCP, Avid, etc..

Yeah. But the camera itself is pretty cool meanwhile, especially compared to the start 6 months ago. The postworkflow is still incomplete and buggy - main missing links are EDL support in RA or RC or RL, crossplatform support for some main functions and the open codec. But as Red announced, in April when the fileformat is disclosed, i suppose that many things will change to the positive.

What hoewever disappointed several posthouses was the lack of communication of the exclusive deals red made for the first phase with only 2 systems - that was different from the "we understand that a camera has to have open workflow" etc and wasnt communicated to buyers clearly enough.

The world of RED production will be an entirely different place by the end of the year. Cameras didn't ship until August 30th of '07... We're still less than 6 months into this.

Yeah, and the camera has evolved well - from baby to babe
Its only logical that the post workflow lags behind still as the camera is priority, and furthermore, i think red can meanwhile gather lots of ideas/information while we struggle through the post pitfalls

 

[Videoteque73]

Welcome to the world of professional video (and cinema)

Professional cinema has several 35mm workflows working for many, many years!!! :sorcerer:

I hope NAB will "bring it all" together and will show a complete system "that works" for all of us. RED never announced themselves as another Sony or Panasonic. If they must be the RED revolution, they must start worrying how people edit their footage, even now. There are hundreds of cameras out there!

As stupid as it may seem, even the graphic card we have installed in our Mac can make it or make impossible editing Red footage.

WE NEED A CLEAR STICKY POST WITH WHAT WORKS AND WHAT NOT. imho. wtf.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Professional cinema has several 35mm workflows working for many, many years!!! :sorcerer:

Of course it does... So does the video world. My point was that new products, which require new workflows, tend to show up and then the workflows develop over time.

 

[Videoteque73]

To be able to develop new workflows, we need basic information first to build upon. This is the workflow section dedicated to Apple, and there's not even a clear sticky with what works and what not.

This is not meant to be a rant, it's meant to be constructive!!!

 

[Aneitz]

It's Frontierland. In our testing the only comment I can offer on workflow: let your clients know you need TIME. It's like film: you shoot, it goes to lab, it gets processed, it goes to a dailies house, you load dailies from tape. Same on the backend retrieving high-res files for finishing.

What I'm doing that seems to work great:

1)Use camera proxies or create M proxies with RedAlert
2)Convert all proxies to letterbox DV50, 23.98fps, files with Compressor
3)Edit in FCP with these quicktimes
4)send XML from FCP, use RedTrip to convert into RedCine compatible file
5)Use RedCine to spit out 1080 files for finishing.

Worst case, if RedTrip screws up. Get high res files from RedCine by hand. If you just hunker down and do it things will often take less time than spending days agonizing with RedTrip or finding what places you made mistakes in proxy conversion

 

[Andrew M.]

THERE IS NO WORKFLOW YET FOR RED, BELOW 60K PRICE TAG.

ALL OTHER SOFTWARE IS IN BETA

 

[Scott Simmons]

It's Frontierland. In our testing the only comment I can offer on workflow: let your clients know you need TIME. It's like film: you shoot, it goes to lab, it gets processed, it goes to a dailies house, you load dailies from tape. Same on the backend retrieving high-res files for finishing.

What I'm doing that seems to work great:

1)Use camera proxies or create M proxies with RedAlert
2)Convert all proxies to letterbox DV50, 23.98fps, files with Compressor
3)Edit in FCP with these quicktimes
4)send XML from FCP, use RedTrip to convert into RedCine compatible file
5)Use RedCine to spit out 1080 files for finishing.

Worst case, if RedTrip screws up. Get high res files from RedCine by hand. If you just hunker down and do it things will often take less time than spending days agonizing with RedTrip or finding what places you made mistakes in proxy conversion

This post sums up the RED workflow better than most!

 

[Harry Clark]

Jeff, I disagree somewhat with your statement that pro gear "just shows up" with no workflow. Panasonic and Sony have been pretty good about releasing decks, plug-ins, and software that works simultaneously with their cameras. And often there is written documentation (however poorly translated), DVDs (in the case of the Varicam), and online support (which we are fortunate to have via this forum)
It would be great if the Red Team could share some bulletproof workflows, step by step, for all levels of production. But it's getting better, mostly through this forum and the help of the community.
Cheers,
Harry