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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

In development...

Jannard said:
Scarlet has been talked about extensively. It is a 3K, 120fps camera with a built-in 8X zoom that starts at 28mm (full frame still 35mm) wide angle.
Jim
Click to expand...

Full frame still 35mm? As in 35mm film's horizontal format? Like the Nikon FX format?

That's more like 70mm.

And 3k would mean nice big fat pixels resulting in incredibly low light capability.
 
Dale Launer said:
Full frame still 35mm? As in 35mm film's horizontal format? Like the Nikon FX format?

That's more like 70mm.

And 3k would mean nice big fat pixels resulting in incredibly low light capability.
Click to expand...

I'm a big fan of BIG FAT PIXELS myself. The kinds of applications we do in terms of 3d extraction from stereo-photogrammetric imagery, still and dynamic we find that we are usually hampered by small sensor size. I.e. we need to get wide angle but with high quality lenses. For example, the short focal length schneider apo-digitar 5.6/47, 2.8/28, 5.6/35 as well as rodenstock 35 mm lens, and even ZM biogons etc. We have tried to implement a rule of no sensors with pixels smaller than 7 micron, and no sensors smaller than 15 mm in the vertical dimension. However, we find our FAT PIXEL mandate seems to be increasingly eroded year on year.

The concept of a 'MONSTRO" sensor for a stills based/quasi dynamic camera (DSLR) would be fantastic for us, as it means we can get close to the sensor (we hope). The lenses we like (because of amazingly low distortion as compared to retro-focal lenses) need to be positioned closer to the sensor. I.e. no room for a reflex mirror. Conventional SLRs because of their flange focal lengths and mirror boxes make the use of these types of critical lenses impossible to use other than longer focal lengths (which are no good for what we do). This is why we have been designing around medium format backs so you put the lens exactly where you want. Designing around the flange focal length of conventional DSLRs is a nightmare (for our applications) and I wish that some one would manufacture a high res simple "block" that you can mount anything to (hopefully the RED/MONSTRO DSLR is not TOO MUCH like a conventional DSLR). The industrial high res equivalents are very expensive, and the imagery looks, well, frankly industrial.

There is also the trend now for example from the likes of Sony with the anticipated launch of the A-900 with 24MP. You have to question with relatively small pixels sizes is the data or imagery essentially flabby, i.e. there is really only about 14MP of decent imagery and the rest is noisy fluff?
Its difficult to engineer a system (from a business point of view) around a LEAF digital back e.g. aptus 65 to 75s, for $20K+ when low end DSLR are now rolling out with 20+MP for about $2k.


With conventional DSLRs their form factor is very awkward to engineer around. They are bulky for what they need to do, and they are plastered with buttons, controls and access flaps/covers, that makes it very difficult to solidly integrate and bolt down into larger mechanical precision system. The medium format backs are much better for this. So I am very much hopping for simple block and large(ish) sensor from RED with several minutes of (full frame, but lower res, high frame rate imagery) like the Nikon D-90 but with larger sensor and higher res dynamic output.


I had written the Scarlet off as I assumed that it had a teeny squeeny sensor, is it really 24-35 mm long (on the base)?

If its big sensor but low res, that would be fantastic!
 
Eric/VERAXYZ said:
I'm a big fan of BIG FAT PIXELS myself. The kinds of applications we do in terms of 3d extraction from stereo-photogrammetric imagery, still and dynamic we find that we are usually hampered by small sensor size. I.e. we need to get wide angle but with high quality lenses. For example, the short focal length schneider apo-digitar 5.6/47, 2.8/28, 5.6/35 as well as rodenstock 35 mm lens, and even ZM biogons etc. We have tried to implement a rule of no sensors with pixels smaller than 7 micron, and no sensors smaller than 15 mm in the vertical dimension. However, we find our FAT PIXEL mandate seems to be increasingly eroded year on year.

The concept of a 'MONSTRO" sensor for a stills based/quasi dynamic camera (DSLR) would be fantastic for us, as it means we can get close to the sensor (we hope). The lenses we like (because of amazingly low distortion as compared to retro-focal lenses) need to be positioned closer to the sensor. I.e. no room for a reflex mirror. Conventional SLRs because of their flange focal lengths and mirror boxes make the use of these types of critical lenses impossible to use other than longer focal lengths (which are no good for what we do). This is why we have been designing around medium format backs so you put the lens exactly where you want. Designing around the flange focal length of conventional DSLRs is a nightmare (for our applications) and I wish that some one would manufacture a high res simple "block" that you can mount anything to (hopefully the RED/MONSTRO DSLR is not TOO MUCH like a conventional DSLR). The industrial high res equivalents are very expensive, and the imagery looks, well, frankly industrial.

There is also the trend now for example from the likes of Sony with the anticipated launch of the A-900 with 24MP. You have to question with relatively small pixels sizes is the data or imagery essentially flabby, i.e. there is really only about 14MP of decent imagery and the rest is noisy fluff?
Its difficult to engineer a system (from a business point of view) around a LEAF digital back e.g. aptus 65 to 75s, for $20K+ when low end DSLR are now rolling out with 20+MP for about $2k.


With conventional DSLRs their form factor is very awkward to engineer around. They are bulky for what they need to do, and they are plastered with buttons, controls and access flaps/covers, that makes it very difficult to solidly integrate and bolt down into larger mechanical precision system. The medium format backs are much better for this. So I am very much hopping for simple block and large(ish) sensor from RED with several minutes of (full frame, but lower res, high frame rate imagery) like the Nikon D-90 but with larger sensor and higher res dynamic output.


I had written the Scarlet off as I assumed that it had a teeny squeeny sensor, is it really 24-35 mm long (on the base)?

If its big sensor but low res, that would be fantastic!
Click to expand...

He was talking about the lens, not the sensor. AFAIK, the sensor will be same size as 2/3 inch HD sensors.
 
Verko said:
He was talking about the lens, not the sensor. AFAIK, the sensor will be same size as 2/3 inch HD sensors.
Click to expand...


That's what I initially thought when they first announced the scarlet. Common sense would dictate that would be the most likely size of the sensor.

However I am very intrigued by the Nikon D-90 as they claim that their HD (1280 x 720) is pulled from the whole sensor area. I guess this implies the kind of on chip pre-processing that has been the promise of CMOS chips for several years but as yet has not been fully exploited/implimented.

We will snap up a pair of D-90s to find out how it really goes.
 
Misunderstanding here... the reference to full frame 35mm still is ONLY a lens field of view reference. Scarlet has a 2/3" sensor.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Misunderstanding here... the reference to full frame 35mm still is ONLY a lens field of view reference. Scarlet has a 2/3" sensor.

Jim
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to clear that one up, much appreciated.

Any idea when in the future we might (hope) to see concept visualizations of the DSLR/Monstro concept? Q3 2009?

Of course we are super eager as we know we will have to junk our current mechanical designs in about 18 months once we know how the next wave of RED products is going to play out, but if you are at the bleeding edge you have to be very agile.

Thanks in advance...
 
RED is going to be much more stealthy about future renders, either disguising them or simply not showing them at all as it has been confirmed RED technology is being reverse engineering in china, none of us want to see chinese knockoffs of a RED one that records 1080P AVI's to an fake ipod touch powered by small beetles?
 
Jashunter said:
....none of us want to see chinese knockoffs of a RED one that records 1080P AVI's to an fake ipod touch powered by small beetles?
Click to expand...

Actually I think we'd all like to see THAT, Jim included (as in "Yeah Right!")

But hey! Business is business dude. If it works and it's cheap I'll have one. Can't afford to be sentimental in this tough new economic climate.

(Actually for as long as I can remember there's been a "tough new economic climate". When are we going to get an easy one?:bleh: )
 
Eric/VERAXYZ said:
That's what I initially thought when they first announced the scarlet. Common sense would dictate that would be the most likely size of the sensor.

However I am very intrigued by the Nikon D-90 as they claim that their HD (1280 x 720) is pulled from the whole sensor area. I guess this implies the kind of on chip pre-processing that has been the promise of CMOS chips for several years but as yet has not been fully exploited/implimented.

We will snap up a pair of D-90s to find out how it really goes.
Click to expand...

Yes, it scale down the image in real-time. Unfortunate not all lines are used so there is some aliasing, like in most P&S cameras video modes that work the same way.

If they used exactly all pixel values there wouldn't be any aliasing.

/Henrik
 
I only read the first five pages, but as an author who shoots the images for his books as well as makes his own DVDs, I can tell you that I have been waiting for this hybrid technology for 20 years. Right now, with my FF Nikons and Panasonic video cameras, I have over $30,000 USD tied up there—a DSLR that can do video (assuming high quality sound, which I am reading as a safe assumption) count me in as a future customer. Like a lot of folk in the industry, I have no brand loyalty—I am only interested in results. Cheers, KL
 
Henrik Andersson said:
Yes, it scale down the image in real-time. Unfortunate not all lines are used so there is some aliasing, like in most P&S cameras video modes that work the same way.

If they used exactly all pixel values there wouldn't be any aliasing.

/Henrik
Click to expand...

Henrik thanks for the heads up, wondering if the artifacts would hamper its use for video game dev applications. If alternate lines are initially pulled then this could trip up our 3d extraction algorithms between multiple cameras of the same subject.

hmm..
 
I'm all about a kick ass camera.

But, how are you going to match the price of a Nikon D90. That things 1,300 with a lens.
 
I'd love to see this thing close the to price point of the D90. Within a couple hundred dollars that is. High resolution is nice, but even if this thing only shoots 1080p video at 24 and 30fps with Redcode, that would be outstanding. There are shoestring filmmakers like myself who can only afford something like the D90 or perhaps the Scarlet (whatever its final price would be). We're willing to make sacrifices on some things like resolution, variable frame rates, so long as we get a camera with inexpensive lenses and the manual controls of a true DSLR even when shooting digital motion pictures.

Since I'm both passionate about still and moving images, I'll follow this closely. Until then I think I'm going to pick up a D90. Exciting times we live in.
 
Eric/VERAXYZ said:
Henrik thanks for the heads up, wondering if the artifacts would hamper its use for video game dev applications. If alternate lines are initially pulled then this could trip up our 3d extraction algorithms between multiple cameras of the same subject.

hmm..
Click to expand...

The aliasing is not as big as in the highspeed modes of the Casio F1 or Samsung HMX-20 but it's still there.

I've only looked at the recordings ppl have linked to over at the dpreview.com forums, so that could a source of sample videos from the D90 if you want to check if that quality is good enough for your purpose.

/Henrik
 
I wouldn't expect to see a D90 price point for a RED product. Expect greatness, but expect Jim to make a profit, too.

Jim created RED ONE because he didn't like his $100,000 Sony HD camera. Oops. So he figured he would make one if the public wanted it, and the rest was history.

If you want to figure out what Jim will make, then, it has to be something he wants. And he doesn't want a D90. He wants a D3 or a 1Ds Mk III. So he is creating something to compete with the 1Ds Mark III. I predict it will cost around $2,000, because that will comfortably undercut the D700 and 5D, but it could be $3,000 if its capabilities are more on the revolutionary side.

Since it has to be able to shoot stills and motion video, it can't be a conventional mirror-based SLR. Has to be based on an EVF. But because Jim IS a shooter at heart it's going to have to be an amazingly good one. I think revolutionary EVF technology may be at the heart of this project because so far nobody's done one good enough to substitute comfortably for the old fashioned mirror.

What does confuse me is how on earth it would not compete with Scarlet. It has to shoot motion video, so it has to be able to go at least 30 fps, and it has to produce higher resolution images than Scarlet, or it's not a DSLR. And yet Jim has said it's a completely different beast and Scarlet is not threatened. Seems odd.

Of course it could always be a gimmick like the D90 which shoots lower resolution images in the movie mode but that's a bit difficult to believe in view of Jim's obsession with higher quality and resolution. And we know that when Jim says a product is revolutionary, well, it is.

I was planning to buy a Scarlet when it comes out next year but now I wonder if I should wait for this new wonder-DSLR. I hope we will hear more by the time Scarlet is out so we can make a fair decision of what to do with our Red dollars.

D
 
David Dennis said:
What does confuse me is how on earth it would not compete with Scarlet. It has to shoot motion video, so it has to be able to go at least 30 fps, and it has to produce higher resolution images than Scarlet, or it's not a DSLR. And yet Jim has said it's a completely different beast and Scarlet is not threatened. Seems odd.
Click to expand...
Maybe it will be a relationship like One and Epic: Trade in Scarlet and pay the difference for the upgrade.
 
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