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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

IMS news please

Tico said:
I think getting an Alesniak dumb EF mount to use Leica glass on it via a good quality Leica R to EF adapter would be a "compromise" worth exploring. The money you saved could go towards the purchase of a Viewfactor Impero and Inclino solution. And since the Alesniak mount would give you the ability to adjust back focus without much ado (through the RED OEM mount collar), you'd be sitting pretty.

No? Perhaps? Maybe?
Click to expand...

That's the way I'm going to go for the moment,it's not perfect but it's workable and allows you to use three flavours of glass,Canon,Nikon/Zeiss ZF and Leica R. Unfortunately Leica M lenses can't be used without the removal of the PL mount collar,and that's something Red are not very happy with.
Tom.
 
so sad to read this...

so sad to read this...

Jarred Land said:
You know what Burger.. I am starting to think that it might not be so "innocent" that they do not mention the warranty implications.

At any rate.. I have begun talking to someone from there.. so we will see how it goes. I am pretty excited about alesniak's mount though right now.. so we will give Alesniak priority with our engineers for testing.
Click to expand...


I called P&S recently to order the IMS Mount that I was dying to get as soon as my RED arrives, which should be in 1-2 weeks from now. First thing they told me was that it will void my guarrantee. I was shocked to hear the news because I remembered seeing something written on their website a while ago that said something like "the guarrantee issues with RED have been solved...". They told me that one of their employees (who btw doesn´t work for the company anymore... I don´t know why though...) had posted that info prematurely and that they think it was a bad mistake on their side that might very well be the main reason for this whole issue getting so complicated. They pointed me to this thread to learn more about how the community reacts to the situation and upon reading all the posts it makes me quite sad to see how the whole issue has turned into this "he said she said" thing because in the end not only the customers suffer from it but the images of two innovative companies do too.

I was so in love with the idea of being able to throw all kinds of glass in front of my mysterium sensor and being able to merry the benefits of the digital revolution with the vast amount of high end cine lenses as well as beautiful vintage glass out there (and not having to unscrew mounts and risk damaging my sensor). Getting the chance to experiment with dozens of old lenses that are collecting dust on the shelves of rental houses or in some small photo retail store to me was like getting presented with this amazing painters palette with all these beautiful colors I could only dream of before.

I really dig all the 3rd party stuff that people have created so far and it´s just sad to see that progress on one of the tools that encourages creativity and furthers the joy of experimentation more than any other (apart from the RED itself) seems to be stuck in a deadlock. The fact that nobody from RED even cares to mention openly what it is exactly that has to be changed for IMS to be approved furthers the impression that the main issue is not a technical one after all (if I miss out on something here please let me know).

I have no affiliation with P&S in any way although I live in Munich, not too far away from their headquarters, but I appreciate that they pointed out straight away that I will void my guarrantee if I put the IMS on my RED. I won´t put it on, because my relationship with RED is much more important and vital to me in the long run. But I can´t help being quite frustrated. Just because the guys over at RED have an issue with what the guys over at P&S did or did not do I have to miss out on a lot of fun stuff...

Please guys. Don´t ruin the fun. Get together, find a solution, show us how cool you really are and give us some love... (I know you guys at RED have given us a lot of love already... guess I´m getting gready because of being pampered too much...)

Cheers,

Kay
 
Kay,

Good post.

Just one thing to point out - Red has indeed hinted at some problems the original design of the IMS entailed; namely the i-Cable and heat transfer away from the sensor.

Anyway, it seems that Red and P+S are in talking terms again. All hope is not lost...
 
Hopefully they will get each other at the end of this IMS movie.

BTW,

1. Issues with i/cable should also has every other mount that requires taking of the RED PL mount.

2. Thermal issues has every object or a part like a mount or even your finger if you stick it longer at closer touch with the RED camera front.

Just test it by yourself.

It's not IMS issue at all because the ring that IMS has around its PL hole has always a lower temperature (it's always cooler) than RED front.

I can confirm that as an IMS user (I still have a bloody pirate status).

Also IMS ring is made from another and very good thermal durable material that can "absorb" less heat anyway.

3. So, what's the issue?

4. Probably a bad communication between both companies.

5. Potential and current IMS customers/users suffer.

6. Unfortunately in this case no that a customer comes first.
 
kay madsen said:
I called P&S recently to order the IMS Mount that I was dying to get as soon as my RED arrives, which should be in 1-2 weeks from now. First thing they told me was that it will void my guarrantee. I was shocked to hear the news because I remembered seeing something written on their website a while ago that said something like "the guarrantee issues with RED have been solved...". They told me that one of their employees (who btw doesn´t work for the company anymore... I don´t know why though...) had posted that info prematurely and that they think it was a bad mistake on their side that might very well be the main reason for this whole issue getting so complicated. They pointed me to this thread to learn more about how the community reacts to the situation and upon reading all the posts it makes me quite sad to see how the whole issue has turned into this "he said she said" thing because in the end not only the customers suffer from it but the images of two innovative companies do too.

I was so in love with the idea of being able to throw all kinds of glass in front of my mysterium sensor and being able to merry the benefits of the digital revolution with the vast amount of high end cine lenses as well as beautiful vintage glass out there (and not having to unscrew mounts and risk damaging my sensor). Getting the chance to experiment with dozens of old lenses that are collecting dust on the shelves of rental houses or in some small photo retail store to me was like getting presented with this amazing painters palette with all these beautiful colors I could only dream of before.

I really dig all the 3rd party stuff that people have created so far and it´s just sad to see that progress on one of the tools that encourages creativity and furthers the joy of experimentation more than any other (apart from the RED itself) seems to be stuck in a deadlock. The fact that nobody from RED even cares to mention openly what it is exactly that has to be changed for IMS to be approved furthers the impression that the main issue is not a technical one after all (if I miss out on something here please let me know).

I have no affiliation with P&S in any way although I live in Munich, not too far away from their headquarters, but I appreciate that they pointed out straight away that I will void my guarrantee if I put the IMS on my RED. I won´t put it on, because my relationship with RED is much more important and vital to me in the long run. But I can´t help being quite frustrated. Just because the guys over at RED have an issue with what the guys over at P&S did or did not do I have to miss out on a lot of fun stuff...

Please guys. Don´t ruin the fun. Get together, find a solution, show us how cool you really are and give us some love... (I know you guys at RED have given us a lot of love already... guess I´m getting gready because of being pampered too much...)

Cheers,

Kay
Click to expand...

Nice post… thanks…
The fact that they told you right away that the warranty is voided is good even so they still not say anything about that at their website… After all, if they wouldn’t have told you, that would be really dull…

Didn’t they say any think about the new talks they have with RED?

Jarrett, any news your can share with us?
 
In a recent correspondence with P&S on another mater relating to IS, which P&S were very helpful. I had reason to understand they are in touch with Red and ask for patience re the warranty matter. Hopefully P&S and Red will have this sorted out soon.

Dave
UK
 
Well said Kay.

We certainly didn't want to cause hysteria or bad feelings, it just seemed that if no one spoke up the whole thing would just slip through the cracks and the system is too good to let that happen.

We need this mount!

Hopefully resumed talks shall yield positive results.

I should write fortune cookies...
 
my hunch is that the cable is the big issue.

with Birger mount, it is isolated in protective wrap and goes somewhere safe and solid.

with IMS mount, it just gets jammed back into the camera body; ie. the cable is not protected, it could conceivably get itself into some odd places within the camera body.

the Birger mount works great by the way :)
p
 
I don't think the cable is the main issue here.
I've only just received my Red and the first thing I noticed was amount of heat that's generated from the front.
It's not IMS issue at all because the ring that IMS has around its PL hole has always a lower temperature (it's always cooler) than RED front.
Click to expand...
Also IMS ring is made from another and very good thermal durable material that can "absorb" less heat anyway.
Click to expand...

Sanjin, I think that's a major part of the problem,the large PL turret is far more massive than it has to be for any structural reason,in my opinion it's a heat sink,and not a very subtle one,but obviously necessary.You will also notice that the heat transfers to the lens,and any self respecting design engineer will have taken this into account,and made allowances for the worst case situation. Obviously most 35mm still lenses will not have the same heat dissipation properties as as a PL Cine lens.
I would hazard a guess that the sensor and associated electronics probably don't have very much headroom as far as heat goes,and are probably running very close to their specified tolerances, so it wouldn't take very much extra heat to be potentially harmful.
I also noticed from photographs that the Birger mount seems to also have increased in mass after the problems it had,and it still only gets a very qualified approval from Red.
Thermal design is a really important part of electronics,especially when your pushing things to the limit.
All P&S did,from what I can see,was make some minor modifications to what was an extremely elegant solution for their camera,but I don't think they fully understood the thermal dynamics going on within the Red One body. Hopefully the Red team will give them enough information in order for them to redesign the mount specially for the Red,and we can all move on from this sad saga.
I'm possibly very wrong in these assumptions,but it's my opinion for the moment,all things are subject to change of course.
BTW Sanjin I thought your handheld rig was very inventive,if not a thing of great beauty.
Regards
Tom.
 
Thomas Dobbie said:
I don't think the cable is the main issue here.
I've only just received my Red and the first thing I noticed was amount of heat that's generated from the front.

Thermal design is a really important part of electronics,especially when your pushing things to the limit.
All P&S did,from what I can see,was make some minor modifications to what was an extremely elegant solution for their camera,but I don't think they fully understood the thermal dynamics going on within the Red One body. Hopefully the Red team will give them enough information in order for them to redesign the mount specially for the Red,and we can all move on from this sad saga.
I'm possibly very wrong in these assumptions,but it's my opinion for the moment,all things are subject to change of course.
Click to expand...

When I talked to P&S they told me that heat issues are the number one thing they care about when designing lens mounts. Just look at their website and the stuff they designed over the years. The digital highspeed Weisscam they designed and built that goes up to 1000 fps uses the IMS mount successfully aswell as the SI 2K. It seems that these guys know what they do. They made a bad mistake though putting info prematurely on their website that said "the guarrantee issues with RED have been solved..." (which they said happend accidently and that´s why they took it off their site later). They have to suffer for it now as we all have to occasionally if we make a mistake. I´m glad they pointed out the guarrantee issue straight away when I wanted to order my IMS. I hope RED will give them a second chance. The guy I talked with at P&S said that they are open to any suggestions from RED because they see the big interest from potential users. Just look at this thread. It´s merely 6 weeks old, has over 14.000 views and a five star rating. I guess that speaks fo itself?

I agree that the P&S icable solution doesn´t look very promising. I wouldn´t want to loose my cable somewhere in the camerabody and I wouldn´t mount anything to my camera that voids my guarrantee. I´m depending on REDs support because I can´t fix the camera myself. I´m just sad that the number one toy on my wishlist won´t be an option on the day my camera arrives. But RED taught me patience over the last 9 months and I´m positive that I´ll sit this one out too...
 
It still does not say anything about voiding the warranty on the PS website or the manual. It is quite the opposite look what it still states on the PS website as of this morning:

"The final design of the IMS Mount for RED One is an IMS Mount that can be attached to the RED One WITHOUT modification of the camera or any parts of it - only the original mount is exchanged with the IMS mount. After calibration of the new setup, the unit is ready to shoot!"
 
The digital highspeed Weisscam they designed and built that goes up to 1000 fps uses the IMS mount successfully aswell as the SI 2K. It seems that these guys know what they do.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt that they are excellent engineers,but the Weisscam was, I understand, designed from the start to use the IMS mount and that will have had an overall impact on the electrical and thermal design of the body.I'm sure the IMS mount works perfectly with the Weisscam,it was designed to do so,it's fairly obvious that the same design has issues with the Red One,and probably requires a substantial redesign.
I'm as keen as anyone else to get this working.
Tom
 
Lara Stara said:
It still does not say anything about voiding the warranty on the PS website or the manual. It is quite the opposite look what it still states on the PS website as of this morning:

"The final design of the IMS Mount for RED One is an IMS Mount that can be attached to the RED One WITHOUT modification of the camera or any parts of it - only the original mount is exchanged with the IMS mount. After calibration of the new setup, the unit is ready to shoot!"
Click to expand...

it has said this for a long time.. they just mean you dont take off the entire front of the camera like before.. now you just remove the PL mount (including the screw shim thingy
 
Lara Stara said:
It still does not say anything about voiding the warranty on the PS website or the manual. It is quite the opposite look what it still states on the PS website as of this morning:

"The final design of the IMS Mount for RED One is an IMS Mount that can be attached to the RED One WITHOUT modification of the camera or any parts of it - only the original mount is exchanged with the IMS mount. After calibration of the new setup, the unit is ready to shoot!"
Click to expand...

I´m shure you know the famous "miranda" warning?

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."

I see no reason why they should have to make an open statement about the guarrantee issue on their website. As far as I know RED never made an open statement about their camera not being a real 4K camera which we all know it isn´t but I don´t care because it´s still a great camera. Apple never made a statement about their "millions of colors" in Macbook pro displays which are only 6 bit displays using dithering and not true 8 bit. Everybody does it. It´s called marketing. Not that I agree with it, but I´ve taken for granted that it happens everywhere around me. Do you tell a person you want to kiss that you had herpes when you were sixteen? I try to take a critical look before I buy something and make an informed decision.

I called P&S and without me asking they said upfront that the mount voids my guarrantee, that´s all I care about. They were honest and lost me as a potential customer unless they are able to solve their issues with RED.

Excuse me being blunt but I think you are nitpicking. We shouldn´t pour gasoline into the fire. Let the two companies solve their issues and let´s hope that P&S get´s a second shot at changing what is needed for the RED IMS mount to be approved and we will all benefit from it. I can´t imagine why someone could not be interested in the IMS mount. It´s a great concept, it ads versatility to your camera and I´m dying to get one as soon as the last design flaws are solved.
 
Thomas Dobbie said:
I don't think the cable is the main issue here.
I've only just received my Red and the first thing I noticed was amount of heat that's generated from the front.



Sanjin, I think that's a major part of the problem,the large PL turret is far more massive than it has to be for any structural reason,in my opinion it's a heat sink,and not a very subtle one,but obviously necessary.You will also notice that the heat transfers to the lens,and any self respecting design engineer will have taken this into account,and made allowances for the worst case situation. Obviously most 35mm still lenses will not have the same heat dissipation properties as as a PL Cine lens.
I would hazard a guess that the sensor and associated electronics probably don't have very much headroom as far as heat goes,and are probably running very close to their specified tolerances, so it wouldn't take very much extra heat to be potentially harmful.
I also noticed from photographs that the Birger mount seems to also have increased in mass after the problems it had,and it still only gets a very qualified approval from Red.
Thermal design is a really important part of electronics,especially when your pushing things to the limit.
All P&S did,from what I can see,was make some minor modifications to what was an extremely elegant solution for their camera,but I don't think they fully understood the thermal dynamics going on within the Red One body. Hopefully the Red team will give them enough information in order for them to redesign the mount specially for the Red,and we can all move on from this sad saga.
I'm possibly very wrong in these assumptions,but it's my opinion for the moment,all things are subject to change of course.
BTW Sanjin I thought your handheld rig was very inventive,if not a thing of great beauty.
Regards
Tom.
Click to expand...

I didn't have any problem with RED front heat during my IMS experience.

There were productions that shot using PL lenses with my IMS for RED

in studio and outdoors for about 12-14 hour daily and nobody complained

about front camera heat or even the mount. Also nobody was keeping one lens

longer than an hour on RED. Probably longer you keep a lens on RED

more heat you could transmit.

That's all what I know from my user point of experience.
 
Actually, I'm not sure the Birger mount did change much after its initial problems--which all seemed to stem from power supply and cable related matters. Erik altered his cable and supplied video of how to properly install the mount so that the cable is protected.

Jarred was specific that IMS had made no attempt to take care of the cable--an issue which I haven't heard/seen P&S respond too, unfortunately.

That said, I'm not saying heat doesn't matter--its just that this is not the thing that Jarred has mentioned here.

For what its worth--hot cameras is something we've all been using for a long time now (remember the earlier fan discussions!). The Birger mount gets hot too.

p

--I keep trying to quote people with that little red box around the quote...how do you do that???
p
 
kay madsen said:
just use the "quote" button at the lower right side of the post you want to quote...
Click to expand...

...which looks like this:
quote.gif


Alternatively, you can use this
quote.gif
button when writing your reply.
 
kay madsen said:
I´m shure you know the famous "miranda" warning?

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."

I see no reason why they should have to make an open statement about the guarrantee issue on their website. As far as I know RED never made an open statement about their camera not being a real 4K camera which we all know it isn´t but I don´t care because it´s still a great camera. Apple never made a statement about their "millions of colors" in Macbook pro displays which are only 6 bit displays using dithering and not true 8 bit. Everybody does it. It´s called marketing. Not that I agree with it, but I´ve taken for granted that it happens everywhere around me. Do you tell a person you want to kiss that you had herpes when you were sixteen? I try to take a critical look before I buy something and make an informed decision.

I called P&S and without me asking they said upfront that the mount voids my guarrantee, that´s all I care about. They were honest and lost me as a potential customer unless they are able to solve their issues with RED.

Excuse me being blunt but I think you are nitpicking. We shouldn´t pour gasoline into the fire. Let the two companies solve their issues and let´s hope that P&S get´s a second shot at changing what is needed for the RED IMS mount to be approved and we will all benefit from it. I can´t imagine why someone could not be interested in the IMS mount. It´s a great concept, it ads versatility to your camera and I´m dying to get one as soon as the last design flaws are solved.
Click to expand...

nitpicking...? Well if you do advertising for a product which definitely voids the warranty of the camera it was produced for – and not telling that right way also on your website it´s just not a good style at all. Period.

This is just an example of a scewed up way, companies think they can get a way with it, without really solving a problem and communicating.

P&S told me at the phone; I as a costumer should make my decision…. Well I think we all do…

If you call all this marketing, It is defiantly poor marketing…


Only this discussions here in the form have started moving thinks a bit again … hopefully they now work it out…
 
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