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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

imagine! REDCINE pro

One solution would be to share sdk with cineform on a licence agreement now and introduce native R3 editing and color correction on already available software. If both companies are willing a bit of sacrifice then the opportunity to become market leaders would become available. The way cineform work i'm sure this would happen in lightning speed and we could all be nativly editing and color correcting by the end of the year (or sooner) for under $5000. Those that want basic setup would get it for less, certainly 100 times more features than currrent redcine. Cineform are tried and tested in this environment. They can do 4k now. If both companies re looked at their future goals in perspective of current market dynamics, it would be worth serious consideration on both sides.
 
reality said:
FCP has sold over a million licenses which is what enables it to price itself at a much lower price.
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There's no question that FCP has a wider install base and therefore it would be much more inexpensive for Apple to create an update than for RED. But that's the nature of business. Say you decided that you wanted to start a new car company - it would cost you millions and millions of upstart costs and R&D to put such a thing together. But you can't expect that your customers are going to pay $800,000 for your car simply because you're new to the game and Toyota has already "sold over a million cars, so they can price their automobiles at a much lower price."

Anyway, Jim has stated that REDCine will "always be free," so the issue is moot. I was just saying that I was surprised of people's perceived expectations on what it could cost. I personally would not pay $1,500 for software in this market which merely acts to one light color and transcode my files.
 
Also keep in mind that all software companies make money on the software - in the case of Apple and FCP the money is made on the hardware (notebooks, workstations, monitors, phones, ipods, etc), operating system and then the applications. Last year I believe that FCP was .5% of overall sales for Apple (please correct me if I am wrong). In the case of Assimilate and other software only companies, the value, salaries, profit, etc. must come from the software alone. Free does not go very far.

A burdened cost of a single engineer is ~$250K depending on location. That includes equipment, salary, medical, benefits, lights, desk, etc.

As with all new technologies, initial costs are high to pay for R&D, patent filings, and everything associated with getting a product out the door. Over time, the technology moves down and it gets replaced by new technology.

Michael
 
Bruce Allen said:
Yes. That's pretty much computer graphics.

I remember when Softimage | 3D would charge $$$$$ per Mental Ray CPU. We were using Indigo 2 Extremes at the time, plus used extra licenses so we could slap renders on the SGI Onyx when not doing Flame jobs overnight.

Then Microsoft bought Softimage, ported it to NT, Alias | Wavefront came out with Maya, Softimage was late with XSI and had to start dropping prices... and WHAM, 5 years and a crazy price war late you can get amazing 3D packages for under $2000 and render on as many CPUs as you want.

Scratch Cine pricing feels like Softimage | 3D before the crazy price war. Or Avid before FCP.

Yes, something with MOST of the features of the top product, but for under $2000 is exactly what we should reasonably expect, given the industry's history.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
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Softimage doesnt have unlimited rendering...you still pay for the Mental Ray licenses.
 
I'd settle for a RedCine user's manual... even a list of things that we know will make it crash... anything... hell, even if it had a subtitle... anything...
 
gunleik said:
I do indeed expect an app without crippled rendering functionality and an app which doesn't crash when you mix 2k & 4k footage in the same project, or just randomly crashes in the middle of nowhere in a project, and an app which doesn't screw up TC on clips because it thinks we all are 24 fps guys.
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree that the current build of Redcine is very bug ridden, has serious hardware compatibility problems (especially on the PC side, but even on some Mac configurations), and is not something you can really rely on in a production environment at this point, at least not without battle testing it on various hardware configurations before settling on one that generally works. I was just reiterating the view that problems aside, the program matches its design criteria quite closely, and that those who want it to be something else need to understand what it was actually designed to be in the first place.

And as others have already pointed out, all of this is rather moot because it has been made very clear that Red is not a software company, does not intend to be one (at least not at this point in time), and is not planning to do a for-sale version of Redcine. But it should also be pointed out that regardless of its obvious similarities to Assimilate's product, Redcine is NOT an Assimilate product. It is a Red product, it is maintained and updated by Red, and is supported (or not) by Red. True, it uses Assimilate's interface design. But the interface design is not the source of the problems you're talking about, the inner workings of the program are. And as Lucas has pointed out repeatedly (to a lot of deaf ears, I'm afraid), Redcine is not Scratch and Scratch is not Redcine. They both share some code from both companies, but that's it. Scratch has almost none of the bugs that plague Redcine, but then again, Scratch is a mature product on a specific platform. Redcine is a beta release that is cross platform. That alone implies very serious differences. Whatever bugs Scratch exhibits related to R3d file handling - and as I said, there are very few - stem from the Red node that is written and supplied by, yes, Red. Not Assimilate.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for Assimilate here. I'm just pointing out the facts.
 
I think it is worth listening to what Jim stated about Redcine -- that Build 16 will require an upgrade to the existing apps, RA and RC, and it is worth waiting to see if they can improve on these once the new Build 16 is in full release.

These apps should remain free - RED has stated from the outset that it would not ignore the post workflow. If they can integrate a round-tripping function, such as Crimson, can make it less buggy and crash-y, and can build efficiencies into playback and rendering, that would be outstanding in a "free" program.

I think these things do have to happen in order, though - perfect the image first, especially since this is a re-build, and the other items will follow

Once the SDK is released, there will be plenty of opportunities to pay up for additional features and functions -- I'd rather see RED focus on a solid RedCine and RedAlert and then let the 3rd parties jump in to fulfill the other needs and expectations at a variety of attractive and competitive price points!

Maybe some of the 3rd-party success stories will be enough to get Apple off their asses and getting FCP and Color to play well with RED...that's what I would like to see, a big pay-off from the insider knowledge that they have had all along, passed along to their existing customers and baked into their existing applications that we already own or else into a RED-specific add-on that integrates well with the existing suite.
 
Mmost, thanks :)

I am about to run Scratch, so obviously I hope it is a less buggy and time-consuming platform that... let's say... color :)
 
Hey Guys light me a little...If we need to name an ideal workflow/platform/soft today to work on the fly with a RED1 ...which name would be??
 
Thank You Kaya...
Scratch Cine??
 
It cracks me up that people are trying to find a way to pay for a free program.

Wait until the SDK comes out kiddies, then you will have "pro" choices out the wazzo.

Jay
 
raphavf said:
Thank You Kaya...
Scratch Cine??
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assimilate has 3 softwares with different goals:

scratch cine= only r3d+edl+primary cc software only 17,k, redboxx combo 34k
scratch prepost= r3d files+dpx files+edl+primary CC, turnkey system 55k
scratch= all formats are supported+dpx+primary CC+ secondary CC, price depends on your luck....hehe (lets say 70k-100k?), software+hardware

pro: native r3d support.

con: no 4k realtime monitoring, only 2k....but there are no so much choices about 4k monitoring anyway
scratch cant pass the audio out of the r3d files asfaik.

if you use the fcp + scratch combo you will have to find a way to share the raid between PC and Mac...assimilate will definitly guide you
 
The announced opening of the fileformat to 3hrd parties is even more important than the SDK imho.

So many companies have products, superior in many aspects to the current native systems, --ready-- for red and are simply not allowed to release them.
 
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