Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Image Circle Database

I was just thinking the other day; the FULL AREA OF THE SENSOR of the S35 frame is 5556 mm X 2780 mm with 15.4 megapixels of coverage and with a 33.55mm image diagonal with look around within the FULL AREA OF THE SENSOR.

However the ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY itself, what is recorded in the camera sensor is 5120 mm X 2700 mm with a 13.8 megapixels and a 31.26 Image Diagonal, with the strange Aspect Ratio of 1.896:1 that Steven Hilder gave the sensor the name of the X-35 Aspect Ratio as he calls it.

So let’s say that the ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY of 31.26 is the maximum area that is required to cover the Lens Image Circle outline by Matthew in his Diameter Database. Of course never going over the 31.26 mm Diameter of the S35 or S35-X.

Now the 1.85:1 could be cut off from the top of the frame (just slightly) and take it to the edge of the 5120 mm frame area leaving just a bit more for the lenses to go wider on its coverage, the megapixels should be similar from leaving the 2700 mm of the top (possibly with a slight change, but not much).

Now for the smaller 2.40:1 or the 2:1 frame area it’s just a matter of cutting the top of the 2700 mm frame area, but keeping the width of 5120 mm area active. The 16.9:1 can be arranged accord ling to fit within the ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY.

So it can actually work with existing High Quality Cine Lenses. All the Aspect Ratio fit well within the Red Pro Primes (25 mm at 34 mm of diagonal size and bigger) and the Arri/Zeiss Master Primes (16mm at 34 mm of diagonal size and bigger). It’s all about how far the Cine lenses can go out to cover the 5120 mm frame area, and that’s where Matthew Lens Image Diagonal Circle Chart of the Diagonal Database comes in.

The more I think about it, the more convincing this option it’s the better of two worlds. I was just thinking out loud. One more stop of ISO/ASA, a larger sensor still at 5.4 microns, and the new technology of modular assembly all wrap into one package. It’s like the Red One evolved into the S35 with all of its evolutionary advancements, but the lenses, tripods, lighting and all the other things remained the same, just pull the Red One out and put in the S35 or S35-X.

Of course as Jim likes to say; "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

Humberto Rivera
 
Humberto Rivera said:
...with the strange Aspect Ratio of 1.896:1 that Steven Hilder gave the sensor the name of the X-35 Aspect Ratio as he calls it.
Click to expand...

I just want to make it clear that I did not come up with the term 'X-35', and I do not recommend that anyone else use this term to refer to RED's upcoming S35 sensor format. The single most important specification concerning lens coverage requirements for the new sensors is the image circle / diagonal measurement. This is why I am against using 'X-35' or any other ambiguous label, and why I am very grateful that Matt Duclos is sharing his findings online in his Image Circle Database.
 
Steven, my sincere apologies for saying that you did! But someone did, here is the proof.

Humberto Rivera
 

Attachments

  • Logo_X35[1].jpg
    Logo_X35[1].jpg
    58.2 KB · Views: 0
Humberto Rivera said:
Steven, my sincere apologies for saying that you did! But someone did, here is the proof.
Click to expand...

No worries, Humberto :smiley:

Yes, several people in this thread thought that 'X-35' would be a good label to describe the 5K DSMC S35 30x15mm sensor - I, for one, hope it doesn't catch on.
 
I just wanted to set the record straight by using the following quote; “Let's try to use the phrase "acts like" instead of "is". A 50mm is always a 50mm, no matter what the sensor size. A 50mm can "act like" a 40mm on an X35 size sensor.” Jim Jannard

The X35 label to describe the ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY of the S35 seems just as good as any other, it’s got an Aspect Ratio of 1.896:1, call it what you may. It’s up to Red to name it what it wants, because they created it. You got to call it something, and thinking about some more, it makes sense to shoot the full ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY.

The sensor is wider, and it’s covered by the current Pro Lenses, and it will yield a wider frame that where’re accustomed too. It was Corrado Silveri that came up with the X35 drawing, and Jim who suggest the X35 designation with lots of help from everyone else.

Steven Hilder said; “If I design a new lens with a 30.10mm image circle, can I market it as an 'X35'-compatible lens? Sure, it wouldn't cover the full 5K active sensor area (which is a non-standard aspect ratio of 1.896:1), but it'll comfortably cover 5K at 2.40:1 and 16:9 aspect ratios.”

Nonetheless is still has Aspect Ratio of 1.896:1.

Humberto Rivera
 
Matthew, from time to time I enter your web page; http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html to see if it was up-dated. I’m only just asking, when do you think that it would be up-dated? Or is there another web page we should be look at, I might have the name wrong? Don’t get me wrong, it’s a wonderful idea to do the database. Just Asking! Keep up the great work you are doing. Thank you!

Humberto Rivera
 
This is a useful thread. But unless I am just missing it - what about the Red 18-50mm image circle? Will it work with an 5K EpicX?

Thanks
Pete
 
I was just thinking. If this is what the Arii/Zeiss Master Prime see’s at the front end of the X35/S35 camera sensor, and they are all over an Image Circle of 33.54 then what we see at the other side of the lens is over 34 mm Diameter, for both the Red Pro Primes and the Master Primes will do just fine. The only difference is that it would be slightly wider from the Super 35 mm Film Camera to and X35/S35 Camera Sensor, thus slightly wider lens. Matthew keep-up the good work!

The is one question, what about the NEW Arri/Zeiss Distagon T2.8 Ultra Prime 8 mm R lens, what is the Image Circle for that one, it certainly a beauty. It makes the very close up shot look almost cartoonish without any distortion, with is a desirable property these days. I suspect that it will probably be ideal for the X35/S35 sensor, but the jury still out on that.

Humberto Rivera
 

Attachments

  • master_primes_l[1].jpg
    master_primes_l[1].jpg
    98.5 KB · Views: 0
Matthew, congratulations on the ongoing improvement to your web page; http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html it’s an indispensable tool for all of us to look at from time to time. For example what is the true Image Diameter of the new Cooke Super Speeds 5/i lenses, I know they are not out yet, but when they do come out it would be nice to know. And what about the NEW Arri/Zeiss Distagon T2.8 Ultra Prime 8 mm R lens. Thank you!

Humberto Rivera
 
Matthew, like always your Image Circle Database is an invaluable resource that we can all turn too. Thank you!

I don’t understand why lens manufacturer don’t provide this information, knowing that the new mark to meet is at least 32 mm of diagonal image coverage for the full ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY (31.26 Image Diameter) of the S35 Camera Sensor or 33.5 mm like you like to put it. If it meets that it will certainly cover the super 35 Film Image. The 2:1 image has a diagonal of 30.91 mm.

The Red Epic S35 is the new mark for every lens manufacturer to meet; it’s an important part of the Film Culture. We know that the Red Pro Primes and the Master Primes will do just fine. We are all waiting to confirm if the New Cooke 5/i Lenses will also cover this image circle, as well as the NEW Arri/Zeiss Distagon T2.8 Ultra Prime 8 mm R lens.

The Red Epic S35/X-35 is an important part of the Film Culture. That’s a significant statement, were using all the tools of Filmmaking with the new S35/X-35, the two worlds are slowly merging into one, they’re interchangeable. The lens manufacturers need to adapt to the new measurements if they want to survive.

Matthew, we’re all looking forward to your next update.

Humberto Rivera
 
Matthew: can you please explain how you are measuring the image circles? Specifically, what equipment are you using. I ask because I have a bunch of cine lenses (and still lenses) that are not currently in your database and, if I can understand how to measure, I might be able to help add to the database.

I have a Richter autocollimator, but still am not totally familiar with it. I don't have a projector yet.

Thanks
 
Thanks’ Matthew, your web page keeps on improving: http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html

Now that we had a peek at the new Red Epic X35/S35 your web page becomes more important, the actual real Image Circle needs to be covered without any real lens degrading. The database needs to show that a lens has at least the FULL ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY of the X35/S35 frame of 31.26 Image Diameter. Eventually the Actual Camera will be on the market, now is the time to think about the glass.

We now know that the Image Circles in order to fit within the S35/X35 Image Circle has to be at least:

The FULL AREA OF THE SENSOR of the S35 frame is 5556 mm X 2780 mm with 15.4 megapixels of coverage and with a 33.55mm image including look around.
The FULL ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY of the S35 Camera Sensor has a 31.26 mm Image Diameter with an Aspect Ratio of 1.896:1 and its 13.8 megapixels.

The 1.85:1 ASPECT RATIO is slightly less that the 1.896:1 Aspect Ratio, or if you want to go the other way it could also be 13.5 Megapixels, with a 30.67 Image Circle, and a 4996 mm X 2700 mm image.

The 2:1 IMAGE ARRAY has to be at least 30.91 mm covering the 5120 mm X 2560 mm with a 13.1 Megapixel area.

The 2.40:1 RECORDING AREA is 29.95 mm covering the 5120 mm X 2132 mm in a 10.9 Megapixels area.

Thanks’ Matthew, always looking forward to your new current updates! Thanks’ also to Steven Hilder for his chart.

Humberto Rivera
 
Matthew I notice a little change in your Website with the introduction of appears to be a difference between the FULL AREA OF THE SENSOR and the FULL ACTIVE PIXEL ARRAY of the sensor. Keep-Up the good work!

Humberto Rivera
 
Tokina 11-16mm

Tokina 11-16mm

Matthew Duclos said:
I feel bad for taking over the other thread that this was being discussed on.
So I figure I would drop it in a new thread for all to see.
I update the list as lenses pass through the shop here.
If there are any specifics you would like, just let me know and maybe I can throw one up to test.

Click Here!
Click to expand...

Hello Matthew,

Do you have the image circle of the Tokina 11-16mm? and since I am asking questions how much does it cost? you could always pm me with a price if that is ok?

best
 
Haven't seen Matt post in while. He must be very busy hacksawing the backends off of Tokinas. :smile:
 
David Rasberry said:
Haven't seen Matt post in while. He must be very busy hacksawing the backends off of Tokinas. :smile:
Click to expand...

Hey I have the trademark on applying the words "hacksaw" towards Duclos work! :sifone:
 
Shawn is the inspiration behind this pic from a couple months back...
3552067921_d7b0f92b3d_o.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top