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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

im just wondering.. why beign hostile?

luki said:
But the idea that we are somehow tying RED's hands with an exclusivity contract is 100% false.
Click to expand...

Hello Luki,

I undestand the courage you had to go with Jim Jannard :tongue: and that this was a gamble for your company:greedy: ...

But I never understood the move RED has taken to go soooo sloooow on giving the tools to the "Number 1" developers who beg to have direct access to the Raw decode...

Happy to know there whas no written contract.

Patrick
 
luki said:
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
OK I will do the bad guy again...

Was there any verbal agreement?
Click to expand...

Evangelos, I will not feed into your negativity. Sorry. :)

Best,

Lucas
Click to expand...

Luki, here's the quote from Jannard that got us all thinking you guys had an agreement:

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139028&postcount=70

"Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

Jim"

This was a long time ago, when Jim told Cineform they weren't allowed to decode .R3D files.

It was a pretty nasty thread and you were on it a lot strongly supporting the closing of .R3D, which led us to think it was probably an Assimilate agreement you were defending:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7735

I think you can easily see how people interpreted this an an Assimilate / RED exclusivity thing. And got really angry.

If it wasn't then what exactly was Jim's excuse again !?!

Later in the thread, Jim said:
"Agreements are binding. Honor is based on one's ability to keep it promises. Period. This is about the community. That includes Apple and Assimilate. Countless hours and money have been spent by all of us on behalf of the community."
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139399&postcount=128]

He also said:
We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access".

We're still waiting for that. And still pissed about it.

Maybe it's a RED / Apple secret pact (that'd explain why we don't have a Windows Quicktime codec, hahaha ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Luki, here's the quote from Jannard that got us all thinking you guys had an agreement:

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139028&postcount=70

"Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.
Click to expand...

Hey Bruce,

I seriously doubt that was in reference to ASSIMILATE... Legal usually only gets hot and bothered when written contracts are involved...

Lucas
 
luki said:
Hey Bruce,

I seriously doubt that was in reference to ASSIMILATE... Legal usually only gets hot and bothered when written contracts are involved...

Lucas
Click to expand...

Gotcha.

But just letting you know every time we pushed him to open up the R3D format he said "we have to honor our agreements with our early partners who believed in us first" which pointed the finger (incorrectly) at you guys (you and Apple were the only early post partners).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Luki, here's the quote from Jannard that got us all thinking you guys had an agreement:

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139028&postcount=70

"Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

Jim"

This was a long time ago, when Jim told Cineform they weren't allowed to decode .R3D files.

It was a pretty nasty thread and you were on it a lot strongly supporting the closing of .R3D, which led us to think it was probably an Assimilate agreement you were defending:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7735

I think you can easily see how people interpreted this an an Assimilate / RED exclusivity thing. And got really angry.

If it wasn't then what exactly was Jim's excuse again !?!

Later in the thread, Jim said:
"Agreements are binding. Honor is based on one's ability to keep it promises. Period. This is about the community. That includes Apple and Assimilate. Countless hours and money have been spent by all of us on behalf of the community."
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139399&postcount=128]

He also said:
We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access".

We're still waiting for that. And still pissed about it.

Maybe it's a RED / Apple secret pact (that'd explain why we don't have a Windows Quicktime codec, hahaha ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

What was to be said, its being said.-
 
The burden of explanation shouldn't really fall on Assimilate to disclose what kind of agreement they have or don't have with RED, they didn't create the .R3D format or the Red One camera. And hats off to them for devoting resources towards the formats success.

I think the onus falls on RED to do more going forward, and quickly, towards solidifying relationships with arguably more established software vendors and/or to push though better supported software of their own. The beta releases of RED software have been great to get people going, but not enough has been done to galvanize these tools into the mainstream or to support them. People would gladly pay for these improvements, the R&D would be wisely spent.

IMHO more needs to be done from a communication standpoint as well. This forum is great, it's for the people by the people kind of stuff and if you keep up with it daily you tend to stay up to date with various workflow developments. But we all don't live and work in a RED-bubble, and if you can't stay up to date, it can take a lot of sorting through various topics and rants to distill what is the state of the art for RED post-production workflow, unless of course you own a Scratch.:wink: I would love to see a more formal email newsletter that spells out the latest and greatest workflows that are vetted by RED, and announcements of updates to codecs and software titles too, even those not written by RED so long as that is the world we will continue to work in, unless of course we happen to own a Scratch. :greedy:

No hostility, just solutions.

number6 said:
Lucas, you should have posted this a long time ago. (Or maybe you did and I missed it)
Click to expand...
 
Brandon Kraemer said:
The burden of explanation shouldn't really fall on Assimilate to disclose what kind of agreement they have or don't have with RED, they didn't create the .R3D format or the Red One camera. And hats off to them for devoting resources towards the formats success.

I think the onus falls on RED to do more going forward, and quickly, towards solidifying relationships with arguably more established software vendors and/or to push though better supported software of their own. The beta releases of RED software have been great to get people going, but not enough has been done to galvanize these tools into the mainstream or to support them. People would gladly pay for these improvements, the R&D would be wisely spent.

IMHO more needs to be done from a communication standpoint as well. This forum is great, it's for the people by the people kind of stuff and if you keep up with it daily you tend to stay up to date with various workflow developments. But we all don't live and work in a RED-bubble, and if you can't stay up to date, it can take a lot of sorting through various topics and rants to distill what is the state of the art for RED post-production workflow, unless of course you own a Scratch.:wink: I would love to see a more formal email newsletter that spells out the latest and greatest workflows that are vetted by RED, and announcements of updates to codecs and software titles too, even those not written by RED so long as that is the world we will continue to work in, unless of course we happen to own a Scratch. :greedy:

No hostility, just solutions.
Click to expand...

All true, but perceptions rule the masses.
 
Totally agree with you Brandon.

It's time for RED to step up the plate.

Luki - sorry to blame Assimilate for RED's stupidity and hurting their own customers. Looks like it was an incorrect assumption. But Jim did kinda point the finger at you guys on multiple occasions, so it was easy to be misled.

Post remains the #1 thorn in RED's side at the moment. Now I have to wrap my head around the idea that RED decided to put the stick the thorn in themselves for fun. It wasn't any other company that forced them into this stupid situation. Doesn't make sense - which is why I and others have had a hard time believing it. But hey, if you say there weren't agreements then there weren't.

So sorry Luki. I'll stop bugging you and start bugging RED some more ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
Revisionist history, I call foul!

It wasn't like that at all. I know, I was there.

Someone said that PCs were better than Macs. This was after the PC makers stole the Mac GUI.

heh.
Click to expand...

Trust me PC makers did not steal the Mac GUI... the Mac GUI is the primary reason I use Windows over Mac.
 
I thought the GUI was given to MicroSoft by Xerox?

Or IBM?
 
Bruce Allen said:
Gotcha.

But just letting you know every time we pushed him to open up the R3D format he said "we have to honor our agreements with our early partners who believed in us first" which pointed the finger (incorrectly) at you guys (you and Apple were the only early post partners).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

Bruce,

Like I said in an earlier posting - RED gave us a serious headstart. Sure, Apple and ASSIMILATE had exclusivity for awhile. Jim is a man of his word, and he did honor his agreements, and then some. But the "term" of that handshake agreement ended a long time ago.

But, I still believe - for reasons that have nothing to do with ASSIMILATE - that a closed format for what RED is trying to do is the only way to do it. If they open the format, they would have to add dozens of additional programmers, and dozens of support staff. They would have to essentially become a software company. And they're not. They're a camera company.

I think you and I have fundamentally different visions of what an "open source" model for R3D would look like. I think it would be a disaster, and an "open" platform would end up with R3D processing being even more confused than it can be right now. As it is right now, there are people who know what they're doing with the somewhat black art of color spaces and making everything work with R3D. But that is only because they have a set of known principles to work from.

Your model only works if the R3D format is a static model, and either never changes, or changes on a "normal" release cycle of once every 6 months to a year, or something like that. But with the release cycle that RED has, it would just be madness, and nobody would know what to trust or who to trust.

That's my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions and a***oles... : )

Lucas

P.S.: I also think that all this focus on the past helps nobody.
 
luki said:
But, I still believe - for reasons that have nothing to do with ASSIMILATE - that a closed format for what RED is trying to do is the only way to do it. If they open the format, they would have to add dozens of additional programmers, and dozens of support staff. They would have to essentially become a software company. And they're not. They're a camera company.
Click to expand...

Let's face it, if they keep the format closed then they become a software company too. They still need to add dozens of additional programmers and dozens of support staff. Because this current situation (way too much stuff still in Beta and lacking basic features) is terrible.

Not having their Quicktime codec ported to Windows yet is laughable.

RedRushes, etc could easily be ported to Windows too.

If they just hire *ONE FRIKKIN' GUY* to port the Quicktime codec to Windows, that problem would be solved.

And they can hire *ANOTHER GUY* to maintain the RedRushes etc ports that problem would be solved too. And we'd have real Windows tools.

...and hire an INTERN to read through the REDCINE bug reports and maintain a list.

The fact is that RED thinks having decent cross-platform tools is worth less than 2 programmers' salaries, plus an intern. They don't seem to see the problem - which is a big mistake.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Ethan Cooper said:
Juan M. P. - I saw that name and thought for a moment that Reel-Stream was in the forum. Sadly this doesn't appear to be the case, unless Juan went to work for Assimilate® and changed his middle initial to M. On second thought your name looks nothing like his.
Click to expand...

What the...?:w00t:

--

Back to the topic of the thread... this is (as my point its made) getting hostile. Comments of those like Evangelos Achillopoulos, in my point of view, are unecesarilly agressive and in some point it losses track of what he is trying to say.
cmon people.


Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
OK I will do the bad guy again...

Was there any verbal agreement?
Click to expand...
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
No its hostile questioning...

"ASSIMILATE does not and has never had any kind of WRITTEN contract with RED about R3D exclusivity"
Click to expand...

Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
For years we tolerate incomplete software that insults our common sense with the amateur handling in the QA or in arrogant behavior towards to clients.

The collective frustration results to very little tolerance towards to manufactures that are exhibiting this kind of attitude.

Please excuses me if I'm wrong, but I thing that as users we deserve respect and we expecting not to throw in our face attitude in most hostile way...

So I thing its expected a reaction to the above attitude.

In every action there is always a reaction. It is the simplest axiom in physics....

And its our duty towards to the coming generations not to allow this to happen in the future.

Of coarse there is always the choice to sleep and not stand forward.
Click to expand...

chill out dude...
i feel you when your saying you want respect, everyone deserves respect. and action and reaction doesent give you the right to jump on nobodys neck.
IMHO i think assimilate's way to treat clients its outstanding. in my personal experience with assimilate's way of working and staff it has always been great, atention is in order every time its needed. (im just guessing here you'r referring to assimilate????please correct me if im wrong)


Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
So I thing its expected a reaction to the above attitude.
Click to expand...

Anyway.. an eye for an eye and the world ends up blind. and we dont want that do we? considering we live on images? haha :pirate:

==========


maybe it will help to calm the thread? :bleh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n1NOY_iQtU hahaha
 
luki said:
Bruce,

But, I still believe - for reasons that have nothing to do with ASSIMILATE - that a closed format for what RED is trying to do is the only way to do it. If they open the format, they would have to add dozens of additional programmers, and dozens of support staff. They would have to essentially become a software company. And they're not. They're a camera company.
Click to expand...


one question.....who is doing the next version of redcine you or red?
 
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