If Color can open R3d files, why do i need Scratch?

[Hans von Sonntag]

All the technical stuff si great, but NO WAY will I put 90k$ in a software that delivers an output for a 17,5k$ camera.

There have been many famous directors that used mini-dv footage with 1.000.000 USD Pogel/Davinci systems

----

How would people talk about DI systems if Filmlight, Digital Vision, Autodesk, Quantel had an subforum here on reduser? Personally I'm tired about all this Scratch bashing.

I must admit that Assimilate has to blame themselfs a bit. Their pricing policy is nebulous - for most redusers. And their strategy to sell Scratch as the only true RedOne finishing tool is unlucky to say the least.

Mark's comments as Red's strongest druid (we love you!) does no help either - sometimes.

Regards,

Hans

 

[Nook Kim]

9. No video output (this is supposed to be a telecine replacement?!?!)

There's my big one.

 

[Barend Onneweer]

I thought the thread was about the merits of Scratch compared to Color? RedCine is a different topic. Judging Scratch purely by using RedCine doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it? I don't judge Color by playing around with iMovie.

Although I'm running a Windows shop here I've considered adding Apple Color to my studio. The UI and functionality seem okay. But until now there were so many workarounds, even documented in the manual, that I've steered clear of it. I need to upgrade to a workhorse finishing tool that I can trust when I'm on critical deadlines. From what I've read and heard Color is not quite there yet.

But like with many of these things: if you have time, I'm sure you can achieve the same results with Color as you can with Scratch or Speedgrade. I can actually do more in After Effects than in any of those. It just takes ages.

Bar3nd

 

[indierider]

Scratch is Awesome for DPs this is why.

Scratch is Awesome for DPs this is why.

I have sat in almost every CG suite in New York and i feel nothing is more user friendly than Scratch.... which I now own.
Anyone with any Photoshop experience can run it. if you can't your in the wrong business.
I can shoot a spot in the daytime, go back to my studio,
load the footage
Color Grade the crap out of R3D 4k files
kick out 2k SDI to ProRes422HQ with an AJA I/O HD or Matrox box in realtime straight to a Lacie Rugged to be delivered to the editor first thing in the morning and wow everyone.
No L & T, no Render bars, No Crashes, No bugs.
All this and make it home for dinner.

Best part, I have control of the images and I can deliver my grade super fast. I do not have to explain the "scary" RED workflow or set up a conform or worry about what crap Color Grade the Editor and Producer will do to the footage with out consulting me the DP ruining a potential piece for my reel which was the plague of DPs during this last decade with HD.

Color is great for students and Nobudget Productions but its not a professional tool...it just aint. Sure you can get some decent results but most Producers have FCP and Color and they don't want to use it because they could never bring their clients to sit in on a session using Color it just doesn't look expensive and bad ass enough.

Scratch is cheap. I priced out the new affordable (200K) Divinci System that was at IBC this year and it can not do anything 4k.

If you think its expensive you must of just got into the business. When I started in this business 15 years ago I dreamed of owning a S16mm camera package someday that cost 90k and an Avid that was 40k used. For that much these days you can start a RED camera rental house or Post Production Facilty with an Avid or FCP system and Scratch cine... a little more cash for Scratch finishing.

Another reason...it separates you from the little punk-ass wanna-be DPs. The ones that 3 years ago graduated from Film School and got an HVX for a graduation gift and then bought an adapter and started calling themselves DPs or worse Production Companies yet never been on a professional set, touched a light or made a camera or lighting order, but they own every Jim Jarmusch movie on DVD

You can really kill it with Scratch. Fast turn arounds, Put out beautiful work and make some serious cash too
Color not so much

Oh yeah one more thing... Unlimited number of Scaffolds, (aka Power windows) in any shape you want.
Thats the most powerful thing in the business today if you ask me.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I wait for the moment when...

This is an interesting thread to read. But honestly, this - for me - is the comment that explains things the best.

I think everybody would agree that RED are absolute masters of marketing. Creating a sense of anticipation for the future. And I personally think that rocks.

But the post workflow is for people here - today - now - that need to get work done. So many people on Reduser start their comments about post workflow with, "I can't wait until..." or "It will be awesome when..." or "Any news yet about..."

Yet, there are thousands of cameras out right now that are shooting and need to get work done.

A feature has started shooting. There are at least 3 hours a day - usually much more - of R3D footage that is coming in over a 5-week production schedule. They need high-quality dailies to HDCAM-SR with a quick one-light, burn-in, audio, and an ALE and EDL that represents the media for offline batch digitize. No excuses, no bulls**t.

SCRATCH is not for everyone, and I personally know a lot of facilities that have built successful RED workflows without it!

But SCRATCH is still - by far - the best tool for fast, realtime R3D workflow with no ingest, no conversion, and no waiting. Right now, today. Delivered, proven, and working.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

And a couple of personal comments...

Kaya - there are many, many facilities using SCRATCH for high-end DI and client-supervised color grading. All you need to do is go to our website and take a look at the customer case studies. Probably the best recent example is "Journey to the Center of the Earth," which was the *first* feature graded actually in stereo, where the director and the DP sat in the DI theatre with stereo glasses on, grading live in stereo... 100% on SCRATCH.

Bruce - I am at a loss as to why you continue to use REDCINE when you dislike it so much. Really. Move on to another tool! Maybe you continue to use it because, despite everything you hate about it - it works?

Because RED is still deliberately crippling the other big-time players by disallowing them to play back R3D files in real time.

RED is not "deliberately crippling" anyone. You don't work for RED or ASSIMILATE, and your comments indicate how much you don't know about the dynamics of that relationship, and why things happened they way they did. Stay away from the speculation - you're doing the community a disservice, primarily because it is speculation - and it is wrong.

Best,

Lucas

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

.....I wait for the moment when...
This is an interesting thread to read. But honestly, this - for me - is the comment that explains things the best.

SCRATCH is not for everyone, and I personally know a lot of facilities that have built successful RED workflows without it!

include me in that list.
if you read carefully my posts you see what i do today without scratch.
but it would be even better if the others get the access too.

But SCRATCH is still - by far - the best tool for fast, realtime R3D workflow with no ingest, no conversion, and no waiting. Right now, today. Delivered, proven, and working.

like i said--------cool datamanager
but el cheapo finishing tool.
dont want to compare autodesk finishing tools with scratch.
werent there problems with build 16 stuff?-all solved i guess

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

And a couple of personal comments...

Kaya - there are many, many facilities using SCRATCH for high-end DI and client-supervised color grading. All you need to do is go to our website and take a look at the customer case studies.

you can look to the other guys pages and start comparing yourself if you want.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I said 6 months or even longer ago that Scratch is unbeatable for RED workflow and will stay longer because is data based app or system or whatever...

Only it's a pity that they didn't realize that the laptop RED market (rushes dailies, previews, etc..CC for 2K US$) that RED1 opened with about or more then 5.000 cameras sold.

High end market share is O.K. but that's not a future of a small company at all as we all know that even if we are not involved in owning of any.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I thought the thread was about the merits of Scratch compared to Color? RedCine is a different topic.

Because MacGregor (the guy who started the thread) asked me specifically. So I answered.

Judging Scratch purely by using RedCine doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it? I don't judge Color by playing around with iMovie.

Judging Final Cut Pro by Final Cut Express is more apt.

Hmm, Color is made by a different group of coders to the people who made iMoviie.

T
A feature has started shooting. There are at least 3 hours a day - usually much more - of R3D footage that is coming in over a 5-week production schedule. They need high-quality dailies to HDCAM-SR with a quick one-light, burn-in, audio, and an ALE and EDL that represents the media for offline batch digitize. No excuses, no bulls**t.

You just described a telecine.

Isn't REDCINE supposed to be a telecine for RED footage? That's why it's named that way, right?

But now you want me to buy SCRATCH just for that?

T
But SCRATCH is still - by far - the best tool for fast, realtime R3D workflow with no ingest, no conversion, and no waiting. Right now, today. Delivered, proven, and working.

Because you don't allow any others.

Bruce - I am at a loss as to why you continue to use REDCINE when you dislike it so much. Really. Move on to another tool!

I'm on a PC. I currently have no other tool. Because you bastards don't allow anyone else to directly access .R3Ds.

Maybe you continue to use it because, despite everything you hate about it - it works?

HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE REDCINE FORUM? OMG?!?!?!

MY FAVORITE IS THE ONE WHERE PEOPLE ASK IN MARCH IF THEY CAN RE-LINK FILES AND YOU SAY "uhh, looking into it". AND NEVER GET BACK TO THEM.

NOTICED ANY BUG REPORTS FROM ME?

...THAT YOU NEVER BOTHERED TO ANSWER?

AAAAAARGH! No it doesn't work.!

RED is not "deliberately crippling" anyone. You don't work for RED or ASSIMILATE, and your comments indicate how much you don't know about the dynamics of that relationship, and why things happened they way they did. Stay away from the speculation - you're doing the community a disservice, primarily because it is speculation - and it is wrong.

This is not speculation but observation. RED is deliberately crippling everyone else by disallowing other people the same access to the .R3D format that you guys have.

EDIT: To take it back to Scratch, my point is this:

- if the makers of Scratch have to cripple REDCINE so hard in order not to hurt their business, then it's not a good sign for Scratch.

- eg differentiating your paid from your free product by saying "hey, this one can reliably write to tape, do a quick one-light, burn-in, audio, and an ALE and EDL." is kinda scary. Because in it suggests that the reasons we're having so much grief with the free one is because you don't want it to be reliable.

-Assimilate have had access to the .R3D file format for far longer than anyone else but have so far failied to do innovative cool stuff with it. They're just enjoying the fact that their competitors are crippled by a super-slow SDK. They should be differentiating Scratch by adding features such as:
- very clever noise reduction that works on the RAW level (RED footage is often pretty noisy)
- superior sharpening and optics correction that work on the RAW level (think Adobe Camera RAW)

Assimilate should be leading the way.

Make REDCINE work properly. Bother to support it. If done right, it'd turn a lot of people on to Scratch. At the moment it turns people off Scratch.

I said 6 months or even longer ago that Scratch is unbeatable for REd workflow and will stay longer because is data based app or system or whatever...

Only it's a pity that they didn't realize that the laptop RED market (rushes dailies, previews, etc..CC for 2K US$) that RED1 opened with about or more then 5.000 cameras sold.

Totally agree. Assimilate really dropped the ball here. Everyone I know with a Red package has a little laptop to go with it.

If Assimilate were smart they'd have made a product for that. But I don't think they ever expected Red One to sell 5,000 cameras

Face it: we're now in the mass market (and with Scarlet, even more so).

The first company to make a $$$$ program that can handle our basic Red needs (the ones that REDCINE was supposed to handle, but doesn't because it sucks so much) will make a lot of money.

Still could be you, Assimilate. It's 2008. Most indies have figured out by now that you don't need a $$$$$ system to handle basic stuff like dailies.

Get out of the '90s and come and join us. Seriously.

Or just take a look at all the bug reports in the REDCINE page and start fixing, please.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Barend Onneweer]

Okay this thread is starting to get ridiculously unfriendly now.

The broken support with build 16 shows exactly why RED may have chosen to keep the SDK internal until the firmware and data formatting was 'finalized'. If anyone's to blame here it would be RED for selling cameras without a proper way to access the material on multiple platforms. As far as I know RedCine is still RED's responsibility. They probably pay for the development.

And as far as a universal solution for R3D workflow goes:

Good morning one & all,
Import your R3D files, change resolution on the fly, pop into full resolution for some detail work, drop all the way down to 1/16th for fast cuts on a laptop --- it's all there.

We're right up to 2K at full performance with the latest drop.

Oh, and did I mention that we're working the RED gang on exposing more control on the realtime de-bayering ? ... and of course with Assimilate on making it a full, clean, raw end to end workflow ?

That's Assimilate working with Adobe. There's your 'cheap' alternative. It's a year overdue, but I'm not convinced it's Assimilate to blame there.

And how come everyone feels so entitled to Scratch for the price of Color?

But since we're complaining about stuff: Quicktime sucks major a$$.

Barend

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Bruce,

Just fyi - calling products "suckware" and calling people "bastards" doesn't really help anything.

It's just software, man... people's lives are not on the line here.

Take a deep breath and chill...

Lucas

 

[Joe Walker]

I would just like to second everything that Bruce is saying and re-emphasize that REDCine is severely crippled, buggy, and in most cases not performing up to par. It's been in Beta for over a year now and is still suffering from the same problems since its release. I personally know of nobody within a 400 mile radius of myself currently using (successfully) REDCine as a vital tool in the postproduction pipeline. I think the best thing to happen to REDCine was Crimson Workflow, which the designers of REDCine should either be thanking profusely or looking to hire onto their team. Ian if you ever read this, you single-handedly made REDCine actually somewhat useful (read: useable). I am not trying to be negative, but at the same time, this program is long overdue for some re-working. Batch exports should not lock up in mid-render, xml's should be able to be bounced back and forth with clips of extremely short and extremely long lengths of all kinds supported, I should be able to at some point "hear" the audio playing back in REDCine (I know that's not important to colorists but for what we do its somewhat critical). Bruce is not alone in his wishes for what should be changed with this program. I think he has made some very reasonable requests. Just thought I would offer a little backup here!

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I would just like to second everything that Bruce is saying and re-emphasize that REDCine is severely crippled, buggy, and in most cases not performing up to par. It's been in Beta for over a year now and is still suffering from the same problems since its release. I personally know of nobody within a 400 mile radius of myself currently using (successfully) REDCine as a vital tool in the postproduction pipeline. I think the best thing to happen to REDCine was Crimson Workflow, which the designers of REDCine should either be thanking profusely or looking to hire onto their team. Ian if you ever read this, you single-handedly made REDCine actually somewhat useful (read: useable). I am not trying to be negative, but at the same time, this program is long overdue for some re-working. Batch exports should not lock up in mid-render, xml's should be able to be bounced back and forth with clips of extremely short and extremely long lengths of all kinds supported, I should be able to at some point "hear" the audio playing back in REDCine (I know that's not important to colorists but for what we do its somewhat critical). Bruce is not alone in his wishes for what should be changed with this program. I think he has made some very reasonable requests. Just thought I would offer a little backup here!

i am backing up bruce too.
and i know personally another 15-20 red one ownerns who share this opinion.
we are talking for a huge silent group here.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Bruce,

Just fyi - calling products "suckware"

this part indicates humor

and calling people "bastards" doesn't really help anything.

It's just software, man... people's lives are not on the line here.

Take a deep breath and chill...

Lucas

i would never go so far and call somebody like that.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Jim has said that a new version of RedCine is coming soon.

I agree with Bruce that using RedCine is like death by a thousand cuts, and it has been disappointing that better post-workflow support has not been easily forthcoming over the past 18 months.

New programs like RedRushes have helped, but only by providing more, better workarounds....a truly integrated solution would have been welcome.

It is really the 3rd-party programmers who have saved the workflow. Clipfinder has been a godsend. So has Crimson Workflow. And now FCP integration with Color is greatly enhancing things. As will the Adobe plug-in, no doubt.

Things are definitely crawling along, but it would be great to have the same quantum leaps in workflow that we are witnessing in RED camera technology development...

I'd rather put the $10K for an EPIC camera upgrade towards a killer post solution for my RED ONE, if such a solution existed at that price point....

There's a gaping chasm between the freeware solutions and the options currently available for purchase.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'd rather put the $10K for an EPIC camera upgrade towards a killer post solution for my RED ONE, if such a solution existed at that price point....

Put down $1699 and save the balance for an Scarlet S35 Brain.

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/production/

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Put down $1699 [/url]

that's the one that I'm waiting on...I was just trying to make a point...

 

[Sean]

Bruce,

Just fyi - calling products "suckware" and calling people "bastards" doesn't really help anything.

It's just software, man... people's lives are not on the line here.

Take a deep breath and chill...

Lucas

True, no lives on the line. Maybe some livlihoods, I dunno.

I hear some smart, professional people just really frustrated. There's something missing from the equation, and many people feel it could be fixed.

 

[Santiago Marti]

scratch didn't get the message, and that is not our problem. with color working and the adobe plugin out anytime soon, we'll have no need for it. i'm really wating to try color finesse, magic bullet and colorista right inside aftereffects. for me assimilate and apple are against red's philosophy, i never understood why red choosed them. apple only uses quicktime and doesn't handle 4K and assimilate is more expensive than the camera itself! adobe should buy scratch and sell it just like apple sells color. but if assimilate sells software sooooo overpriced they would ask adobe a ridiculous amount of money. ten years from now adobe and apple will still be there. assimilate? maybe. won't care.