If Color can open R3d files, why do i need Scratch?

[Bruce Allen]

Why do you hate Redcine so much? I love it, it works great. As well as Scratch.

1. It doesn't put color info into the .xml file - so when you want to finish your project (eg export from project from Avid or use Crimson) you lose your color decisions.

2. It decides not to import clips sometimes if you go over a certain number (probably I'll have to cut my 15 minute short film in half to get it to import)

3. It doesn't offer any kind of secondaries (which the RED camera really, really needs IMHO - the color red often ends up pink or brown and should be corrected from the beginning)

4. It can't output SD Quicktimes with 3:2 (VERY common workflow still in Hollywood - eg the trailer company I work for has a dozen OS9 Media Composers that edit 29.97 - this is absolutely fine for offlines for even top-tier film trailers)

5. It doesn't support 2 monitors

6. There is no way to easily marquee-select large numbers of clips and shuffle them around in the library. When I work on a scene that was shot across days, I want to put all my clips next to each other so I can make sure they're consistent. This is a pain in the ass to do at the moment.

6.b) Library needs a zoom out button of course.

7. You can't zoom in or out of the timeline in the player (when you want to scrub through a bunch of clips it's a real suck-fest because if you have 430 clips or so, each clips is like one or two pixels wide in the timeline)

8. It still can't output DNxHD36, which every other program under the sun, PC or Mac, works beautifully with.

9. No video output (this is supposed to be a telecine replacement?!?!)

10. No way to re-link clips (if you move media files from one drive to another, or switch from PC to Mac, you have no way to tell it "hey, the files have moved")

...need more?

EDIT: Oh, just remembered a few more:

11. When you save and load REDCINE looks it tends to forget the folder you were working in so you have to keep re-navigating to your looks folder over and over again

12. It says "error saving project file" every time I try to save my project file to somewhere other than "My Documents and Settings\My Videos"

13. File saving is screwy - when I hit "Save" it goes into "Save As"

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

It can NOT currently do enough of things we need to do, fast enough enough, to service the customers we are getting.

on our last 150 000 USD per day shoot we managed to let the cutter edit the stuff onset...director viewed precolorcorrected scenses with audio/titles/grphics on set in 1080p...after finishing the shoot the editor did some minor changes to the edit.
then online...project finished from start to end without glitches....

and all of that without scratch.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Bruce, as to #3 and the other CC/grading related points, they are features , not bugs...


RC/RA are conceptually developing apps for grading in other applications
That some choose to grade in them, is another subject alltogether.

G

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

on our last 150 000 USD per day shoot we managed to let the cutter edit the stuff onset...director viewed precolorcorrected scenses with audio/titles/grphics on set in 1080p...after finishing the shoot the editor did some minor changes to the edit.
then online...project finished from start to end without glitches....

and all of that without scratch.

That's great. I can do all of that without Scratch too. But I still need to Scratch to service my customers in the way that I want, and need to service them.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I allready have 6 Master Primes lenses Sanjin. But thanks for your idea.

Congrats Macgregor.

Good to know that.

BTW + 3 more and you would have almost whole set.

Also I do not hate RC, just do not like "lock on" desktop option.

It's not a MAC UI friendly and you always have to run two displays to get fast look at another app if you need to compare.

Just move mouse to another display, click on finder and unlock your dock to get another app.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce, as to #3 and the other CC/grading related points, they are features , not bugs...

RC/RA are conceptually developing apps for grading in other applications
That some choose to grade in them, is another subject alltogether.

True. But it's called REDCINE.

As in, you know, telecine. To me, when I go and do the telecine, I have control over the look. And can fix the most glaring errors in the one-light. To me, RED's red tones usually need work. So you need a tool to fix that.

If it were called REDLIMITEDSUCKWARE then I would understand.

Find me a telecine that doesn't do 3:2.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

mark, if scratch fits your needs...cool for you.
it does not fit the needs of others...

maybe if you move up from Scratch to something bigger your business will change again?

Maybe. For the record, many folks would be baffled by the amount of applications and hardware we test and evaluate at Offhollywood in addition to MANY applications I personally track.

The MOMENT there is another DI / Color Grading tool that can offer a better ROI for Offhollywood than Scratch does - with the same or better service and support that Assimilate offers - I will buy it. Period.

If Scratch disappeared tomorrow - I would buy a BASELIGHT. Over any other DI system - I would take a BASELIGHT. But even with the amazing deal I was offered - when I run the numbers - my money makes more money elsewhere.

its not that far away that the other Tools will get the same raw access as scratch.

Not if you ask Bruce. But he's in the grassy nole thinking about Roswell.

then the big advantage of scratch (working with r3d files in 2k/4k realtime) will be gone.
Then the features play again the main factor for the upperclass.
scratch is a cool conforming tool...

SORRY. YOU ARE 100% WRONG. The "big advantage" of Scratch is NOT "working with r3d files in 2k/4k realtime" - that's NOT why we bought it. And sadly, IMO, Assimilate has failed to market the key advantages of the application.

and that you think because some doesnt jump on the scratch wagon, doesnt mean that they are Do everything yourself guys.

You know better then me, that Scratch is the el cheapo finishing tool compared to others...and that has some reasons.

Its good in what it can do- nothing more nohing less

back to topic:

the fcp-color workflow is elegant:
i am curious to see how the premiere plug in will perform.

CS4 workflow is the best I have ever seen. Period. It's not ready, but it's very close. Be nice during the public beta. It's going to be released in beta. Everyone know what beta means ...?

I think it's funny that MOST folks here do not even know about IMPORT FCP XML in Premiere 4.0.1 - and with another click your entire FCP timeline is in AE -

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

This discussion is a bit redicolous. It's like if you ask: Do I need Discreet
Flame when I can use for a 10th the price AE and Nuke plus all the nice Foundry plugins.

No you don't. But there are a still thousends of Flames around which get regulary updated.

Perhaps the Flame has advatages in worklfow, talent base etc...?

Same with Scratch and all the other mid to highend grading systems.

I still believe that the future userbase of Color is overestimated. Most indies will use CC plugins in their NLE. Much more convenient. Color is a bit akward and working with Scratch, SpeedGrade, Baselight etc... needs considerable knowledge - as with Color.

And beside this: The neccessary hardware for a tricked out grading-suite which lets the colorist do her/his work properly is a huge investment. Software is by far the cheapest item that has to be puchased.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I think it's funny that MOST folks here do not even know about IMPORT FCP XML in Premiere 4.0.1 - and with another click your entire FCP timeline is in AE -

Cool. Isn't it?

Premier Pro is going to be the new online tool. If you consider that Cineform can replace DPX and Cineform's RT Premier Pro 4 plugin will be soon released, plus the native R3D import, AE roundtrip, EDL export etc... - I bootcamped my MacPro already.

Hans

 

[Bruce Allen]

Not if you ask Bruce. But he's in the grassy nole thinking about Roswell.

Knoll. If you're going to be patronizing at least spell it right.

SORRY. YOU ARE 100% WRONG. The "big advantage" of Scratch is NOT "working with r3d files in 2k/4k realtime" - that's NOT why we bought it. And sadly, IMO, Assimilate has failed to market the key advantages of the application.

Probably you bought it for its data management? I know Digital Domain etc like it for working with VFX assets etc? Maybe I'm wrong? Why don't you fill us in with some info instead of just playing weird games?

CS4 workflow is the best I have ever seen. Period. It's not ready, but it's very close. Be nice during the public beta. It's going to be released in beta. Everyone know what beta means ...?

Yes we do. Probably have been on several beta programs for high-end vendors. Let's move on. Stop being patronizing.

I think it's funny that MOST folks here do not even know about IMPORT FCP XML in Premiere 4.0.1 - and with another click your entire FCP timeline is in AE -

I think everyone participating in this thread is pretty well aware of this actually.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Gunleik Groven]

What a can of worms.

It's soon Christmas. Let's rejoyce for Scratch, Nucoda, Pablo, Iridas, Avid, Autodesk, Adobe, Apple and RED.

Finally the options have become more plentifold.

Cheers!

 

[M Most]

j
scratch is really good...but way overpriced inmho for what it can do......
The highend people just ignored scratch...

You're saying these things because you're looking at it from the point of view of a RedUser poster. There's a much bigger world of post production out there that works with many different shooting formats. Assimilate Scratch was around before Red, and was designed as a general purpose data management/conforming tool. The fact that they were on board with Red fairly early has little bearing on why most of Assimilate's user base bought the product. It is used for everything from visual effects daily screenings, to data conforms from film scans and other sources, to reformatting for multiple data based deliverables, to color correction and full DI. That's one of the primary reasons it's designed and sold as a modular program, where you can buy the basic data handling engine, or add additional features to it, like data processing, color correction, machine control and real time playout, and basic compositing. Scratch is far more than a Red DI tool. As for the "high end people" ignoring it, I would point out that facilities that most of us certainly consider "high end" - facilities like EFilm, Encore, Fotokem, 3Ality, Postworks, Digital Domain, Cinesite, and a number of others employ at least one, and in some cases, multiple seats of Scratch. And very few, if any, of them use it as a color corrector or as a Red-only tool.

I don't work for Assimilate. I do use Scratch in the facility I currently work in. But this post is really just meant to inform, and to point out that the reasons for its existence have far less to do with its Red capabilities and far more to do with its general image data handling, and its adaptability to different needs and circumstances.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

You're saying these things because you're looking at it from the point of view of a RedUser poster. There's a much bigger world of post production out there that works with many different shooting formats. Assimilate Scratch was around before Red, and was designed as a general purpose data management/conforming tool. The fact that they were on board with Red fairly early has little bearing on why most of Assimilate's user base bought the product. It is used for everything from visual effects daily screenings, to data conforms from film scans and other sources, to reformatting for multiple data based deliverables, to color correction and full DI. That's one of the primary reasons it's designed and sold as a modular program, where you can buy the basic data handling engine, or add additional features to it, like data processing, color correction, machine control and real time playout, and basic compositing. Scratch is far more than a Red DI tool. As for the "high end people" ignoring it, I would point out that facilities that most of us certainly consider "high end" - facilities like EFilm, Encore, Fotokem, 3Ality, Postworks, Digital Domain, Cinesite, and a number of others employ at least one, and in some cases, multiple seats of Scratch. And very few, if any, of them use it as a color corrector or as a Red-only tool.

I don't work for Assimilate. I do use Scratch in the facility I currently work in. But this post is really just meant to inform, and to point out that the reasons for its existence have far less to do with its Red capabilities and far more to do with its general image data handling, and its adaptability to different needs and circumstances.

Mike, dont overrate yourself...you know nothing about me.


But actually i said myself like you said that scratch is not used in many facilities as Finishing Tool.

This is my point...scratch is good in what it can do....and thats all.
Like you said, i said, that a lot of postfacilities dont use Scratch as Finishing/CC Tool...

But with RED assimilate Scratch did promote themselves as powerful r3d realtime CC tool. there are better options out there...You say yourself that hardly somebody use Scratch as CC Tool..data management is a different thing. what i said in previous posts;too
But they had/have the monopoly for raw access for a long time now....which is interesting for the 5000 redusers out there.
This is reality.

more then 50% of my projects are NON Red...remember: Germany is Arri land.
But more and more the clients choose RED over 35 mm for various reasons.
thats reality here

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

From my point of view... REDONE is officially a RED camera!

Not an Assimilate REDONE...

I mean, its not anymore a byproduct of Scratch (the camera)...

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

scratch is a cool conforming tool...


You know better then me, that Scratch is the el cheapo finishing tool compared to others...and that has some reasons.

Its good in what it can do
....

just as reminder for you mike:

cool conforming tool.
el cheapo finishing tool.

how many postfacilities use scratch as data manager again.
And how many use Scratch as CC/Finishing Tool again.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

... Assimilate Scratch was around before Red, and was designed as a general purpose data management/conforming tool....And very few, if any, of them use it as a color corrector or as a Red-only tool.

you are completly right here.
for me its weird that a cool conforming tool was over a year the only tool beside reds tools to get access to the raw--knowing that other vendors are much stronger in the CC area.

Gladly this times will change.

btw...this is a reduser forum.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I think everyone is right and everyone is wrong. It's a matter of means, final destination and service. All the technical stuff si great, but NO WAY will I put 90k$ in a software that delivers an output for a 17,5k$ camera. Mark at OH has a true point, but the Red camera has been a tremendous revolution for the DEY guys, and so should a CC software. Assimilate are great guys, and their machine rocks, but I still think there's a software missing in the picture for most of us. Or hang on, maybe Color is the one...

Anyway, we always have that discussion every once in a while, it's a bit too recurrent, and unless Scratch make a 500$ "Scratch Mini" that suits the "Silver Bullet" crowd (or the "Nikon boys" ), we'll have that talk again. It's the rich VS the poor discussion, period. Everyone should realize that and stop bitching about Scratch. There is a RED life without Scratch, so enjoy...

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Not to be misunderstood...

I have said in the past , that REDONE is a two part device, an encoder (the camera itself) and a decoder (REDCine, REDalert)... The decoder was good for playing around more like our Preview tool in our Mac's... But for real work in a feature length movie they needed a serious workarounds like Crimson, Monkey etc...

So Assimilate Scratch enters the scene... Users that couldn't afford to buy Scratch couldn't use the camera as efficiently as user that are having Scratch... That created a two speed clients the high end and the indies...

The price difference from Camera to Scratch was (is) huge...

30K for a basic package REDONE plus Scratch 75K equals 100K to have an equivalent system as any other camera...

So for me it was, up until now, an Assimilate REDONE camera...

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Lewis, in my opinion the DEY guys are well served now with the fcs2 installer and the coming adobe plug in.

The time for a 500 USD scratch is over now....lucas is completly right in this point. but i still believe they could have done good business the past 12 months.

doesnt matter, the plug in is out now.

I wait for the moment when other di tools get access to the raw.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Not to be misunderstood...

I have said in the past , that REDONE is a two part device, an encoder (the camera itself) and a decoder (REDCine, REDalert)... The decoder was good for playing around more like our Preview tool in our Mac's... But for real work in a feature length movie they needed a serious workarounds like Crimson, Monkey etc...

So Assimilate Scratch enters the scene... Users that couldn't afford to buy Scratch couldn't use the camera as efficiently as user that are having Scratch... That created a two speed clients the high end and the indies...

The price difference from Camera to Scratch was (is) huge...

30K for a basic package REDONE plus Scratch 75K equals 100K to have an equivalent system as any other camera...

So for me it was, up until now, an Assimilate REDONE camera...

you are right evangelos...
i think that at least 3500 red users dont have access to a propper DI Tool...
and can not afford themselves to buy scratchcine at least
i could offer the services my clients needed...but i know beside myself a hell lot of postfacilities waiting for the raw access...which will come for sure.

good times are waiting for everybody.
the choice was what was missing.