Ideal frame rate + shutter speed for aerials

[Aaron Bernakevitch]

I have read most of the helicopter posts and am trying to find the BEST combination b/w shutter speed and frame rate. This has been much talk on aerial's but not a lot of posts on FR or SS.

If you have had success with a certain setup can you please advise me what you shot at (fr&ss)? Also I will be going handle held if that changes anything and will definitely be adding stabilization with either smooth cam or istabilize.

Also what resolution for digital finish as well as which red code have you used, if it makes a difference.

Any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Onwards

Aaron

 

[Steve Gibby]

For aerials where we wanted some slo-mo, we've had good results in:

4k HD/23.98 project frame rate then using 30fps Varispeed mode/96th sec shutter speed

3k/23.98 project frame rate then using 48fps in Varispeed mode/120th sec shutter speed

2k/23.98 project frame rate then using 120fps in Varispeed mode/196th sec shutter

I'd say test things out and see what you come up with.

We've also had good luck in shooting aerials using the ET Shock Mount and Speedy Clamps to mount the RED Drive - no dropped frames whatsoever.

Hope this helps...

 

[Aaron Bernakevitch]

Thank you sir, Will give it a go

A

 

[Joe G.]

Isn't a gyro-stabilizing system more important than any of that?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Isn't a gyro-stabilizing system more important than any of that?

Yes - if you can afford to buy or rent one. If you do, all the input I gave still applies (resolutions, frame rates, shutter speeds) and shock mounts if you're shooting with a drive.

You can have the best gyro stabilization system on the planet (CineFlex in my estimation), and still come out with funky footage if you don't select a good resolution/frame rate/shutter speed combination - and just as bad if you don't shock-proof your drive if you're shooting to a drive. The RED Ram drive obviously solves the vibration conumdrum - but they're in short supply and cost $4.5k - so that may not be an option for many shooters for awhile.

Everything dances together in a well-planned aerial shooting session - its all important.

 

[Joe Shemesh]

For aerials where we wanted some slo-mo, we've had good results in:

4k HD/23.98 project frame rate then using 30fps Varispeed mode/96th sec shutter speed

3k/23.98 project frame rate then using 48fps in Varispeed mode/120th sec shutter speed

2k/23.98 project frame rate then using 120fps in Varispeed mode/196th sec shutter

I'd say test things out and see what you come up with.

We've also had good luck in shooting aerials using the ET Shock Mount and Speedy Clamps to mount the RED Drive - no dropped frames whatsoever.

Hope this helps...

Steve, would your recommendations translate for 4KHD 25 project?
best
joe

 

[Steve Gibby]

Steve, would your recommendations translate for 4KHD 25 project?
best
joe

Sure...I don't see why not. For my projects I normally don't shoot for a 25fps project.

4k HD/25 project frame rate then using 30 fps in Varispeed mode/96th sec shutter speed should work fine. The 5 frame slow down when played back on a 25fps timeline timeline will smooth out the playback. Should look good...

 

[michael zaletel]

I don't understand the math on the 23.98 project frame rate with the 30 fps varispeed and 96th sec shutter speed? Can someone explain? 30/96 = 112.5 degrees? 48/120 = 144 degrees. I'm not understanding why these settings work best for aerial footage.

Thanks in advance,

-shooter

 

[Steve Gibby]

I don't understand the math on the 23.98 project frame rate with the 30 fps varispeed and 96th sec shutter speed? Can someone explain? 30/96 = 112.5 degrees? 48/120 = 144 degrees. I'm not understanding why these settings work best for aerial footage.

Thanks in advance,

-shooter

Important: shooting high motion subjects, or footage where you're in high motion yourself (in and aircraft) is not an exact science. Condition vary, and the results you want from the footage also varies.

Don't get hung up an being too left brained in your approach to shooting motion. There are guys who haggle ad naseum over minutae of camera technology - then there are guys who setup the camera in a few ways, test out their setting to see what works, and go out and shoot kick-ass footage - while the haggle guys are still there with a slide rule or computer trying to figure out how the "go get the footage" guys did what they did!

Aerial and high motion subject shooting flat out involves a lot of experimentation and test shots. The point is to reduce or eliminate judder, jitter, shake, etc. - in essence to smooth out the footage so you don't have to jump through hoops with the footage in post production.

Keeping what I've said in mind, here's some insight on the numbers. The 6.02 frame slow down between a 23.98 project frame rate and 30fps Varispeed amounts to a 20% slow motion playback - which visually smoothes out and softens the little bumps and bounces of the aircraft flight. In experimentation with shutter speeds for the high motion footage we shoot, we've found that going above an 180 degree shutter also smoothes out slow motion playback. By our experimentation with aerials and other high speed subject shooting, we found ourselves happy with the 4k, 3k, and 2k profiles I posted in my first post on this thread.

If you own a RED camera, and have access to shooting some aerials, test out those profiles. I think you'll find them to your liking. But also experiment with other settings if you have the time/money to do so. Each production may have different needs.

You can spend copious amounts of time brainstorming the math of resolution/frame rate/shutter speed combos, and you know what - its not worth even minutely as much as just getting out with RED and experimenting with various combinations of parameters to see what looks best. In other words, real world experimentation always trumps brainstorming in your workshop or studio.

 

[jetaddiction]

i have some footage you might have already seen,we were chasing a seaplane around from a heli. yes it is not the red but it was shot at 60frames played back at 30fps . the shutter speed was 1/250 . It was shot with a shoulder mount and a kenlab ks8 gyro across the horizontal axis. the footage is as shoot with no smoothcam . it was my first day with the hpx170. ( wish i had the red flying it would have been spectacular. www.jetaddiction.com top /click on movies / click on the seaplane. let me know what you think.

 

[michael zaletel]

Aerial Footage in "Ground Rules by Caterpillar"

Aerial Footage in "Ground Rules by Caterpillar"

Don't get hung up an being too left brained in your approach to shooting motion. There are guys who haggle ad naseum over minutae of camera technology - then there are guys who setup the camera in a few ways, test out their setting to see what works, and go out and shoot kick-ass footage - while the haggle guys are still there with a slide rule or computer trying to figure out how the "go get the footage" guys did what they did!

Thanks Steve. I agree. I guess I was just curious "why" it works, which you answered well. I do have a Red camera but no way to shoot aerial footage. I was watching the "Ground Rules by Caterpillar" DVD which was certainly shot by "go get the footage" type people but the aerial footage (which I'm assuming was also shot on Red) is jittery and really tough to watch and I was just wondering why. Perhaps that stuff was shot with an older build or perhaps it was ruined in post or compression. Either way, the aerial footage as it appears on that DVD is totally unacceptable and unwatchable in my opinion. I'm sure they experimented tremendously and used what worked best but the end result was poor.

I'm just trying to understand the "why" so that when I do get a chance to shoot from a helicopter (hopefully Las Vegas) and have to deliver in HD and on DVD, I won't end up with the same results. Do your settings suggestions hold through on footage destined for standard DVD release? Would you change settings if you knew the project was going to DVD or if you were working on a feature film that had to be distributed in everything from 35mm to 4K digital to Blu-Ray to DVD to Broadcast HD and SD?

-shooter

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Steve. I agree. I guess I was just curious "why" it works, which you answered well. I do have a Red camera but no way to shoot aerial footage. I was watching the "Ground Rules by Caterpillar" DVD which was certainly shot by "go get the footage" type people but the aerial footage (which I'm assuming was also shot on Red) is jittery and really tough to watch and I was just wondering why. Perhaps that stuff was shot with an older build or perhaps it was ruined in post or compression. Either way, the aerial footage as it appears on that DVD is totally unacceptable and unwatchable in my opinion. I'm sure they experimented tremendously and used what worked best but the end result was poor.

I'm just trying to understand the "why" so that when I do get a chance to shoot from a helicopter (hopefully Las Vegas) and have to deliver in HD and on DVD, I won't end up with the same results. Do your settings suggestions hold through on footage destined for standard DVD release? Would you change settings if you knew the project was going to DVD or if you were working on a feature film that had to be distributed in everything from 35mm to 4K digital to Blu-Ray to DVD to Broadcast HD and SD?

-shooter

Yes, I'm not a big fan of "earthquake cam" either! Smooth is good. Think of professional "go get the footage" guys as people who think through likely combinations of setups before they ever go out to get footage. We'll always do sample tests of footage before we get to the real shot or take. To not do so is some serious gambling! My point is that after all the pre-production planning, there comes a time where you just have to leave the studio and test out your setup combinations - then come back and see what your tests revealed. Then you tweak them until you have it nailed down correctly.

If you think about it, aerial footage has a lot in common with long lens tripod footage of fast moving objects/subjects. In aerials the thing you're sitting in is moving. In panning and following fast moving subjects with a long lens on tripod, the subject is moving. The effect, and possible artifacts generated, are quite similar in both shooting scenarios. I use those same shooting setups I listed for tracking fast moving subjects/objects when I shoot nature, sports, wildlife, etc. - and the results have been stellar.

Our first helicopter shoot with RED was way back in December 2007 on the North Shore of Oahu, using a Tyler mount. As I remember we shot 4k/16x9/29.97/96sec shutter, and the footage came out pretty darn good - not much shake, no judder, etc. If we'd have shot straight 23.98 with a 180 degree shutter, I guarantee you we'd have had juddery and stuttery footage that day.

On our Icy Killers documentary which aired on National Geographic Channel this past weekend, our crew shot copious amounts of aerial footage. RED One was used for almost all the underwater footage and time lapses, but all the CineFlex footage (aerials and and boat-mounted), was shot using a Sony HDC1500 (with 4:4:4 upgrade) in 1080p/60fps/200fps, mostly using a Fujinon 42x9.7 zoom. The project frame rate for the camera was 23.98, so when the 60fps footage was played back on a 23.98 timeline, combined with the excellent gimbal capabilities of the CineFlex, it was absolutely glass smooth slow motion footage - IMO the very best aerial footage possible using today's technology. An earlier CineFlex system was used by the Planet Earth team - also with excellent results.

Back to RED aerials. Can someone shoulder hold a RED camera, be safety strapped onto the edge of their seat, take the door off a copter, and get usable aerial footage? Yes, depending on how good a shoulder held shooter they are, how windy/bumpy the ride is, and how good the pilot is. The footage can also be processed in Shake and other programs to reduce motion shake but "a stitch in time always saves nine". I used to shoulder shoot from helicopters regularly in Hawaii and elsewhere, with large EFP cameras, with no stabilization system, and get pretty decent and smooth footage - footage that was regularly broadcast. Sometimes I'd also use a Schwem stabilized lens for that, and the footage would be a little bit smoother.

If you're not using a stabilization system for aerials, and are shooting from your shoulder, you'll need to avoid leaning against to many parts of the copter or plane, so less vibration is transferred through your body. Your body needs to be the "stabilization system", absorbing the shocks and bumps before they can be transferred into the camera. With practice, a good shoulder mount shooter can do that.

BTW - Build 16 was a major leap forward for RED One, optimizing the clock speed and refresh rate from the sensor. Build 17.3.4.1 is what I'm currently using - and I'm very happy with it. There was some good aerial footage shot on RED before Build 16, including the the 12/07 Hawaii aerials I referenced, but Build 16 (and builds since) was a major leap forward not only for all shooting with RED One, but also for aerials and shooting fast moving subjects/objects with long lenses on tripods.

In descending order of smoothest to fairly smooth footage here are your aerial options:

Smoothest
Full gimbal system (CineFlex, Wescam, etc.). In my opinion CineFlex is the very best.

Can be smooth
Other mounts like Tyler, etc. Shooter needs to practice with it and refine their use skills

Fairly smooth (or can be "earthquake cam")
Shoulder held by an experienced and talented shoulder held shooter can be pretty smooth - but obviously won't look as good as the categories above. If the shooter isn't experienced at shoulder held shooting and/or isn't talented at it, the footage can look downright terrible

In answer to your questions at the end of your post:
Yes, my settings could be good for footage origination if your delivery is for DVD, or any of the other delivery mediums you listed. Your goal should be to acquire the footage as smooth as possible, then in post if you have delivery to various mediums, you can process, tweak, add/subtract frames, etc.

Hope all this helps...

 

[michael zaletel]

Wow! Helps tremendously Steve.

I can only imagine how busy you are and how valuable your time is. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of this to all of us in this and so many other posts. This is truly the stuff you cannot learn at school or from books and usually the people that you can learn this stuff from are too busy or inaccessible to share their real-world experiences.

Again, thank you.

-shooter

 

[Steve Gibby]

Shooter,

When I can find the time, I'm always happy to help!

Many people have stepped up to help me at various points in my career. I do those very kind people justice by returning the favor to others whenever possible.

You're doing exactly what you need to do to fast track your learning curve about RED - asking good questions, and absorbing what you can from those who've been fortunate enough to use the camera a lot out in the real world.

 

[Joe Shemesh]

Shooter,

When I can find the time, I'm always happy to help!

Many people have stepped up to help me at various points in my career. I do those very kind people justice by returning the favor to others whenever possible.

You're doing exactly what you need to do to fast track your learning curve about RED - asking good questions, and absorbing what you can from those who've been fortunate enough to use the camera a lot out in the real world.

really valuable perspective Steve, so thanks from this part of the world as well mate!!!

best
joe

 

[Steve Gibby]

Joe,

Glad the info was useful for you...

I'm guessing you're in NZ or Oz. I've been down there many times to work...can't wait to go again...

Cheers

 

[Joe Shemesh]

Joe,

Glad the info was useful for you...

I'm guessing you're in NZ or Oz. I've been down there many times to work...can't wait to go again...

Cheers

I live in Tasmania Steve - one of Australia's best kept secrets!!! Will post some aerials soon.

best
joe

 

[Keith Nealy]

Hey Steve

I was just up shooting with Mike Prickett (He says Hi!) the other day over the Mauna Kea observatories (fresh snow) and the volcano (new breakout) and we used shoulder mount setting similar to yours and got pretty good results. Can't wait to get our REDS into a Cineflex, however. We were supposed to have a Tyler but the client didn't order it in time - you know how that goes.

Anyway, thanks for the great info as usual - you da man, brah. Mike says give us a call next time you're out this way.

Aloha,

Keith

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hey Steve

I was just up shooting with Mike Prickett (He says Hi!) the other day over the Mauna Kea observatories (fresh snow) and the volcano (new breakout) and we used shoulder mount setting similar to yours and got pretty good results. Can't wait to get our REDS into a Cineflex, however. We were supposed to have a Tyler but the client didn't order it in time - you know how that goes.

Anyway, thanks for the great info as usual - you da man, brah. Mike says give us a call next time you're out this way.

Aloha,

Keith

Hey Keith,

Howzit braddah?! Good to hear from you...

Mauna Kea, snow, and Kilauea - wow, fun stuff for sure!

Yes, me and Mike go way back into the late '80's and throughout the '90's when I was living each winter in Hawaii and doing some unbelievably fun TV work. The last time me and Mike worked together was in December 2007 when I brought him in on a 3 RED camera coverage of the Pipeline Masters surfing event on the North Shore of Oahu. He shot in-water RED camera for me there - using the very first RED One water housing - made by Mike Hastings. On that gig I had another RED shoot from a helicopter - Ken Corben using a Tyler mount - the footage came out real nice. The third RED camera used an Optimo 12x shooting from the beach.

As I remember, at that time we had to ship a Tyler mount in from L.A. and mount it on the copter in the Islands. Tyler footage can be really good in the hands of a good shooter. It just takes practice...

It may be a while before someone gets a RED One into a CineFlex. I think an Epic will be the better bet. One of the main problems with that is the lack of long focal length zooms available for 3k or 4k shooting with RED. Cine zooms are generally way to heavy/bulky for their focal length to be effectively used in a CineFlex - unless its just wide scenic fly-by footage you're after - then wide angle lenses are workable. For long focal length CineFlex shooting of wildlife, like on our Alaska show, Planet earth, etc. B4 2/3" HD zooms were the only ones which had the zoom ratio we needed - thus our use of the Sony HDC1500 in the CineFlex, rather than RED One. Red One was used extensively underwater though.

I can't wait to get back to the Islands and check in with you, Mike, and our many other friends there! If you hear of any other gigs there - especially interesting documentaries, travel, tourism., and nature - I'd love to team up with you on a project.

Aloha!

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Thanks Steve. I agree. I guess I was just curious "why" it works, which you answered well. I do have a Red camera but no way to shoot aerial footage. I was watching the "Ground Rules by Caterpillar" DVD which was certainly shot by "go get the footage" type people but the aerial footage (which I'm assuming was also shot on Red) is jittery and really tough to watch and I was just wondering why. Perhaps that stuff was shot with an older build or perhaps it was ruined in post or compression. Either way, the aerial footage as it appears on that DVD is totally unacceptable and unwatchable in my opinion. I'm sure they experimented tremendously and used what worked best but the end result was poor.

I'm just trying to understand the "why" so that when I do get a chance to shoot from a helicopter (hopefully Las Vegas) and have to deliver in HD and on DVD, I won't end up with the same results. Do your settings suggestions hold through on footage destined for standard DVD release? Would you change settings if you knew the project was going to DVD or if you were working on a feature film that had to be distributed in everything from 35mm to 4K digital to Blu-Ray to DVD to Broadcast HD and SD?

-shooter

Hey Shooter

I just saw your post regarding the "jittery" aerials.

For the most part the aerials were shot from a gyro stabilized rig. Some of the stuff in Australia was "hard rigged" to the chopper which meant there was some vibration.

We really should have "overcranked" or used a narrow shutter on some of the stuff - or flown slower. The director and I actually discussed this and he liked the speed - although I argued that we would get "stuttuery" motion. Which for some stuff - was in fact the case. When we were color timing on the big screen I was shaking my head thinking "I told you so".

So - agreed. A little high speed and maybe a narrow shutter to reduce some of the motion blur would have been in order.

I think the aerials in Indonesia were quite successful though. Given the lack of "high end" stabilization.