I was wrrr...wrrrrong.

[David Battistella]

we are about to EVAL a new LTO3 unit - so we are just starting down that road - I feel a little better not compressing - just doing 400G per LTO3 tape - but I need to get a little more insight and opinion on that - I just feel like at about $50 a tape - why compress - keep it clean - again, just about to start down the LTO3 road - I welcome opinions from folks with heavy LTO3 experience -

Yeah. I hear ya.

That means roughly one LTO per 320 GIG REDDRIVE so that can keep things pretty clean. Best of all the client loves that there is something on the shelf. Going with an LTO-4 could be a very cool thing too as the REDDRIVE will only get higher capacities.

David

 

[David Battistella]

I doubt REDCINE will have secondaries.

Chris. Excellent point.

If the Color workflow ever gets sorted out it might be a very cost effective package, but nothing is a substitute for a professional colorist doing shot for shot grading and cleanups.

I'm more speculating on what "could" evolve rather than what is the best way of doing things. I look at it in terms of workflow efficiency.

David

 

[Antoine Baumann]

as far as I know, REDDCINE has always been designed as a photo labs and telecine (or scan) but it won't replace color grading tools.

antoine.

 

[number6]

OK. I have to eat crow. I admit it. I won't just shoot 4K.

Jim

Jim, it takes a big man to admit when they are wrong. Lose some weight!

edit: on reflection, you being the keeper of the numbers (camera shipping numbers) let me to rephrase that to "lose some weight, if you want to, or if not then don't." Either way, you will always be a big man in the camera building bidness.

 

[David Battistella]

as far as I know, REDDCINE has always been designed as a photo labs and telecine (or scan) but it won't replace color grading tools.

antoine.

Yes. I understand that to be the case, but if RED ALERT is giving such pleasing images then and it's doing the "quick and dirty" work what is REDCINE being created for at all?

I think it's going to be a program that lets you get pretty deep into the image and we could see new workflows emerging because of the technology. Working in RAW may mean less need for "traditional" Color Correction workflows. Who knows, mabe things like secodaries become less important when with REDCINE you have access to every pixel recorded before a single thing has been done to it.

David

 

[Joe Carney]

2K 60p is making the RED one heck of a camera for syndicated sports shows.
Even when outputting to 1080i, it will be the best looking 1080i out there.
I'll bet even NFL films is interested in this now.

 

[M Most]

Yes. I understand that to be the case, but if RED ALERT is giving such pleasing images then and it's doing the "quick and dirty" work what is REDCINE being created for at all?

Things that many of us need for efficient use of Red files - like batch processing, EDL ingest/pull list processing, file organization, and a number of other things.
Neither tool was designed for color correction. They were both designed for basic setting of parameters for file conversions. Besides, color correction needs to be done at the end of the editorial process, not prior to it. Without continuity, you can't do meaningful color correction, and you certainly can't match angles and provide creative interpretation of the image based on the story and how it is being told.

 

[David Battistella]

Besides, color correction needs to be done at the end of the editorial process, not prior to it. Without continuity, you can't do meaningful color correction, and you certainly can't match angles and provide creative interpretation of the image based on the story and how it is being told.

Yes. I completely understand this, but I was wrapping my brain around a workflow that could potentially see Redcine doing some post editorial color work. If you think about it it really can be done post editorial with REDCINE.

But if it's just a combination of a ONE LIGHT plus Compressor bathcing capabilities that's fine. I think it can be a lot more.


David

 

[mezmo]

Depth of field has nothing to do with the sensor. It has to do with the lens choice and the aperture. If you shoot the same field of view with the same lens at the same stop, you have the same depth of field. What that means is that if you frame something using, say, a 25mm lens on a 35mm camera, and shoot at, say, a 2.8, then put a 25mm lens on a 16mm camera and moved back to keep the same field of view and used the same stop, the depth of field would be identical. Depth of field is something a cinematographer can control. The key is knowing how to control it and having the physical space to do so.

Hi Mike,
Yes your right about DOF as apposed to FOV. 35mm Depth of field seems
to be more commonly used here to describe field of view, which is why
I use it. This seems to have come from people who make and use 35mm
cine lens adapters. Thanks for the correction. Mezmo

 

[mezmo]

Hi,

2K scaled will never shoot faster than 60fps because it is scaled from the full 4K sensor which has a max framerate of 60p. This is a hardware limitation and cannot be upgraded through firmware.

Best,

Häakon

Hi Haakon,
I stand corrected here with 2K scaled maxing out at 60fps using a
35mm FOV/DOF. Anything faster than that will have to be 35mm film.
So Rob Loham is refering to 2K windowed with S16mm FOV/DOF when he talks about 120fps and 100fps on flash.
Bummer, I'm getting even more depressed. Mezmo

 

[Evan Owen]

...
Bummer, I'm getting even more depressed. Mezmo

Depressed? I'm still getting over how excited I am that RED is shooting 2K 72fps NOW.

High-speed digital 2K (let alone 4K) options were pretty limited pre-RED...

 

[Häakon]

Depth of field has nothing to do with the sensor. It has to do with the lens choice and the aperture.

While it's the lens and aperture that directly control the DOF range, the sensor absolutely plays a part in the equation because it dictates what range of lenses you can use. In order to achieve the same FOV on a larger sensor, you need a longer lens to cover the increased sensor area. Longer lenses compress space and shrink your DOF range, which is why 1/3" chip cameras display vastly wider DOF than a 2/3" or even s35mm sized-sensor at a given FOV, and why you get much shallower DOF with RED than most of its competitors. In essence, it's all about the sensor.

 

[mezmo]

Hey Haakon,
Do you know if Red will be capable of 60fps @ 2K scaled, 35mm FOV/DOF
recorded to flash, this might cheer me up a little.
Mezmo

 

[Häakon]

Hey Haakon,
Do you know if Red will be capable of 60fps @ 2K scaled, 35mm FOV/DOF
recorded to flash, this might cheer me up a little.
Mezmo

My guess would be yes, though I couldn't tell you personally what their limitations are. Scaled recording has been on their list of recording formats long before the camera was released, but Jim has just recently said that it will "be awhile" before that feature is implemented. Plus, things are always changing, so your guess is as good as mine. The scaled formats used to be 720 and 1080 from the full 4K sensor; it's now scheduled to be 2K (for now). The other big difference is that apparently the camera will be scaling while still in RAW mode - and while we don't know how exactly that will affect picture quality, it should dramatically reduce the bandwidth needed to store the data as opposed to scaling RGB. So with that in mind, I would guess that, yes, 2K/60p scaled from the full 4K sensor (35mm DOF) should be a realistic shooting mode for RED - even onto compact flash - but I certainly can't guarantee any such thing!

That being said, I wouldn't hold my breath on a release date for such a feature - they have a lot of cameras to build, test, and get running - and a whole lot of other things to get working before they get to that point. Believe me, you're not the only one chomping at the bit!

 

[mezmo]

Depressed? I'm still getting over how excited I am that RED is shooting 2K 72fps NOW.

High-speed digital 2K (let alone 4K) options were pretty limited pre-RED...

Hi Scienceguy.
I'm happy for you that your happy with 72fps windowed with a Super 16mm
FOV/DOF I'm sure a lot of other people here will be too.
We all have different requirements, I should explain, I'm looking at Red as
an alternative to shooting 35mm film on low budget features.
Off speed/high sped cinematography is never a problem on film. the sort
of films I do, require it everyday, for ramping a lot of scenes are shot at 100-150fps .
Your right, having Red run around 100fps is exciting but at S16mm FOV/
DOF and possible loss in picture quality, that's a little depressing.
Mezmo.

 

[mezmo]

Hi Haakon,
Thanks I'm feeling a little better,
Mezmo

 

[tj williams]

So has someone described the RED speed ramp system
can shutter angle be made to vary with speed or what?

I'm pretty excited about 2K windowed and scaled as it will give the Dp choices about depth
of field which we have not had before as we mix the 2K acquisition method according to our Dof
requirement. It's not just for over-cranking

 

[Ramesh Jai]

I need to describe 2k windowed and 2k scaled 'visually' to somebody. Does anybody have examples? Thanks.

 

[Häakon]

I need to describe 2k windowed and 2k scaled 'visually' to somebody. Does anybody have examples? Thanks.

Here's a quick visual for you:

 

[albert rudnicki]

Here is another one.