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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I miss the pre-20 false colour

False Colors in Build 30

False Colors in Build 30

The problem is most serious than Red imagine, most DPs are accustomed wait for the Red color to avoid it and most of them are overexposing.

I never work with a B30 cam. No rental houses here install B30.
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This function is ONLY on Build 30 firmware, so are you describing a Build 30 issue or a pre-Build 30 issue? I'm confused by your comment.
 
Stuart English said:
To see how FLUT™ controls the development of sensor RAW data into the RGB domain, enable the Video Level color overlay.

At ISO 800 with Mysterium-X, you should see that the Green video level overlay aligns with a standard 18% grey.

PURPLE, RED and YELLOW are not missing from the Video Level color overlay, but FLUT™™ acts to prevent RGB video hitting these values.

You can force these colors to appear issue by adjusting SHADOW or EXPOSURE or RGB GAIN..

For more info see Page 132 of the Operations Guide
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I read the B30 manual again and i didn't see anywhere where it says to do this to activate the upper level colors in the False Color overlay. If I understand right from your post, then if I adjust some look settings in the video menu a certain way, those superbright values will return to the overlay in False Color Mode? How do I set these levels to be able to see where my clip points are? I'm not talking about the stoplight readout or the new bars on either side of the histogram and I'm not talking about going into exposure mode. I'm looking to set it the way it was in False Color with red and orange giving me those superbright values that used to be there before FLUT was introduced. I like FLUT as a post option in Redcine, but if it causes me to lose some of the false color spectrum I would rather have it not on, or have another option.
 
I also think that it's not better that everything between the fewer colors is shown in shades of grey.

Why can't we get a zone system like Ansel Adams used but with a seperate color for each? It's 11 zones and should fit perfectly into the 13.5 stops of latitude, right?

Maybe just as an additional mode... would be so great when shooting landscapes...
 
XiaoSu Han said:
I also think that it's not better that everything between the fewer colors is shown in shades of grey.

Why can't we get a zone system like Ansel Adams used but with a seperate color for each? It's 11 zones and should fit perfectly into the 13.5 stops of latitude, right?

Maybe just as an additional mode... would be so great when shooting landscapes...
Click to expand...

This is more or less what false colour was pre-build 20.
 
So, I tested out Stuart's suggestion and found that if I set exposure in the video/color menu to .7 you get both orange and red back in False Color. The only problem is that you're not sure what they relate to. But I was also able to figure out that if you also set the camera to 320 ISO, orange on False Color will correlate to the sensor clip point in the exposure overlay. I can't seem to find a setting combination to make red the clip point, but at least I now have orange working just like the clip point in the exposure overlay so I don't have to toggle between the 2. I'm still not sure why all this is necessary to get orange back.
 
FLUT™™™ and its effect on false color overlays

FLUT™™™ and its effect on false color overlays

The thing to understand is that False Color as implemented in Build 21, is obsoleted by FLUT color science.

Trying to use the multi-color overlay as if it meant what it did pre-FLUT is incorrect (it no longer has that meaning)


Instead: RAW domain sensor exposure is indicated by the Red / Purple color overlay. It really is that simple.


Once that is set, RGB video levels can either be assumed to be irrelevant until post production (film concept)

or

RGB video levels can be matched by ISO to commonly perceived "correct" levels for mid grey etc (video concept)


So don't sweat the fact that you don't see orange or red in Video Level, trust the Purple / Red of Exposure.
 
,
Could you explain this a little more. Is FLUT stopping the sensor from clipping or becoming under exposed? It doesn't really make sense to me. Surely if something is clipped then it must turn Red yes? And if it's within 0-1 IRE it should appear purple?

If FLUT is doing what you say it is doing then it sounds like a step backward. Nothing should stop the readout telling the operator that the sensor is actually operating between 0-1 IRE and 101-109 IRE surely? That flies entirely in the face of having such a video false colour doesn't it?

If the FLUT is controlling the output so that it looks pretty on outputs that's fine but when it comes to a metering utility FLUT should turn itself off surely and we should receive a false colour signal with what the sensor is seeing precisely no?
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FLUT has no effect on sensor RAW measurement, so NO it does not prevent the sensor from clipping, nor does it change how that sensor level is indicated. i.e. it WILL indicate red if it's clipping.

FLUT does have an effect on RGB level measurement, and that seems to be where the confusion is, as Build 21 and earlier used RGB levels as a proxy for RAW sensor information.

With Build 30 and FLUT that's no longer appropriate and we can accurately indicate what is happening to both sensor RAW exposure and monitor RGB levels.
 
Hi Stuart,

Then I think the Video overlay needs to be rethought frankly. If the overlay exists in the RGB domain then it is somewhat pointless.

For my mind the Video overlay should correspond to the specific value hitting each pixel. So 0 to 109 being the value of light that pixel is receiving is then highlighted by the relevant colour on the Video overlay.

It seems to me that what should be a relatively straight forward tool is becoming somewhat obscured by the way it is being interpreted in RGB and FLUT™™.

I think half the problem is in the thinking of it as an overlay. From Red's point of view it is literally overlaying the image being output yes? Whereas as a user I simply want to see the values of light hitting the various pixels as a colour pattern so I can know for fact that this particular pixel has clipped, that one is under exposed to the point that no light is reaching it and that one has the perfect amount of light for skin tone, and that's great because it's on top of that persons face and I'm lighting for that.

I feel like I'm being a bit stupid and not getting this at the moment, is it just me?

Paul
 
We haven't upgraded yet, and continue to love the way false color works. I really hope RED can figure out a way make false color work the way it did. I love using it to see my low and and high exposure areas, helps me adjust lighting on the fly. I also like the pink and green bands in the middle, very useful. Since I haven't seen what built 21 false color looks like, I can't be specific about my complaints, I just hope it will continue to be as useful of a tool as it is for me now.
 
False Colors in Build 30

False Colors in Build 30

PaulClements said:
Hi Stuart,

Then I think the Video overlay needs to be rethought frankly. If the overlay exists in the RGB domain then it is somewhat pointless.

For my mind the Video overlay should correspond to the specific value hitting each pixel. So 0 to 109 being the value of light that pixel is receiving is then highlighted by the relevant colour on the Video overlay.

It seems to me that what should be a relatively straight forward tool is becoming somewhat obscured by the way it is being interpreted in RGB and FLUT™™™.

I think half the problem is in the thinking of it as an overlay. From Red's point of view it is literally overlaying the image being output yes? Whereas as a user I simply want to see the values of light hitting the various pixels as a colour pattern so I can know for fact that this particular pixel has clipped, that one is under exposed to the point that no light is reaching it and that one has the perfect amount of light for skin tone, and that's great because it's on top of that persons face and I'm lighting for that.

I feel like I'm being a bit stupid and not getting this at the moment, is it just me?

Paul
Click to expand...

Question Paul, are you shooting on Build 30 at the moment?

The multi-band overlay has ALWAYS operated in RGB space. In Build 30 there is a second two color band for RAW data.

Pre-Build 30, the muliti-color overly was used as a proxy for the sensor RAW data exposure level, which is O.K as an assumption unless you adjust the camera ISO rating away from the "sweet spot" - hence the various requests we have heard for a RAW VIEW to let you see "what's really going on at the sensor"

What Build 30 does is provide a direct insight to the sensor RAW data exposure level via the Exposure false color. That shows what is "in the mud" and what is "at or near clip". As all other exposures lie between these extremes, that's all we need to know from a sensor perspective. Also FLUT and ISO rating do NOT affect the Exposure false color bands, but of course they DO affect the RGB Levels .
 
Stuart English said:
Question Paul, are you shooting on Build 30 at the moment?

The multi-band overlay has ALWAYS operated in RGB space. In Build 30 there is a second two color band for RAW data.

Pre-Build 30, the muliti-color overly was used as a proxy for the sensor RAW data exposure level, which is O.K as an assumption unless you adjust the camera ISO rating away from the "sweet spot" - hence the various requests we have heard for a RAW VIEW to let you see "what's really going on at the sensor"

What Build 30 does is provide a direct insight to the sensor RAW data exposure level via the Exposure false color. That shows what is "in the mud" and what is "at or near clip". As all other exposures lie between these extremes, that's all we need to know from a sensor perspective. Also FLUT and ISO rating do NOT affect the Exposure false color bands, but of course they DO affect the RGB Levels .
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Hi Stuart,

Yes shooting Build 30.

If I shine a torch directly down the lens using a Cooke 18-100mm at T2.8 on the Video overlay the light emitting from the torch is yellow. On the Exposure Overlay the torch is Red.

According to Red's manual for Build 30 (Page 51) that means the torch on the Video Overlay is between IRE 101-104.

Yet the Exposure Overlay is suggesting it is at Maximum Exposure and has clipped.

To any DoP looking at that image they'll believe they are not clipping using the Video Overlay because they will think (And rightly so because it's right there in the Manual) that it would go orange for IRE 105-107 and if it's totally clipped it'd turn red between IRE 108-109.

This means that Yellow is the highest echelon for judging exposure using the Video Overlay and even that could mean you are now clipping, so Straw becomes the colour to look for to make sure nothing's clipping.

I understand that you can use Exposure to check the clipping and low lights but it simply doesn't make sense. The Video Overlay is wrong as is and having to use two Menu's combined to build a picture in one's mind is a very bad way of judging exposure, especially when for the last two years DoP's worldwide have been getting use to using the false colour the way it was.

I can see that the introduction of FLUT™™™ and other features was Red's attempt to help people to get the correct exposure but in this instance the Video Overlay could mislead people into incorrect exposures thinking they are not clipping.

I strongly urge Red to alter this.

Thanks
Paul
 
I like seeing what's happening in the upper/lower parts of RAW, so I like the new exposure overlay, but as has been said a few times in this thread, I think that the normal RGB false colour should revert to what it used to be, we need to see the full contrast of the scene-especially skin/greenscreen but ALSO highlight clipping even if it is not representative of the full sensor clipping but only of the colour-space we are working on
 
B30 and False Color

B30 and False Color

Well O.K I hear what you are saying, but that is not how it a B30 camera works.

Exposure limits are indicated by the Red / Purple overlay, plus the goalposts either side of the histogram and the traffic lights.

Video Level - i.e. and what's coming out of an HD-SDI feed is indicated by the multi-color overlay.

On Build 30 / FLUT you should NOT be judging exposure on the Video level.


This is the reason why: As the dynamic range of the sensors continues to increase, along with the available ISO rating range, there is a growing disconnect between sensor (RAW) space and video (RGB) space.

Because - just in a film / lab / telecine chain - the video (RGB) space is smaller, so its reasonable to forget about adjusting video levels until you get to post. All we really need to know in the field is if our "digital negative" has been captured without clipping or noise levels that would be objectionable when you apply post processing.

Back to you example, when the torch is shining into the lens, in addition to the red overlay being visible, the right hand bar should be raised and at least one of those lights should be illuminated right? And what happens to those and to the video level overlay when you adjust the ISO rating - say to 250 and then to 1600 and slowly move the torch in and out of view?
 
Hi Stuart,

Yes those bits at the bottom of the EVF/LCD work as expected.

I would like to have a video overlay that relates to those meters and that's what the false colour seemingly use to be. The small rainbow raw meter on the right of the histogram clearly shows red when shining the torch down it. Anyone new to the camera would expect the Video overlay to mirror that meter and according to the manual Red has published it does.

I thought the video overlay was all about exposure, that that was it's sole purpose, if you're now suggesting we shouldn't be judging exposure using it then what is it for?

Thanks
Paul


Stuart English said:
Well O.K I hear what you are saying, but that is not how it a B30 camera works.

Exposure limits are indicated by the Red / Purple overlay, plus the goalposts either side of the histogram and the traffic lights.

Video Level - i.e. and what's coming out of an HD-SDI feed is indicated by the multi-color overlay.

On Build 30 / FLUT™ you should NOT be judging exposure on the Video level.


This is the reason why: As the dynamic range of the sensors continues to increase, along with the available ISO rating range, there is a growing disconnect between sensor (RAW) space and video (RGB) space.

Because - just in a film / lab / telecine chain - the video (RGB) space is smaller, so its reasonable to forget about adjusting video levels until you get to post. All we really need to know in the field is if our "digital negative" has been captured without clipping or noise levels that would be objectionable when you apply post processing.

Back to you example, when the torch is shining into the lens, in addition to the red overlay being visible, the right hand bar should be raised and at least one of those lights should be illuminated right? And what happens to those and to the video level overlay when you adjust the ISO rating - say to 250 and then to 1600 and slowly move the torch in and out of view?
Click to expand...
 
B30 and False Color

B30 and False Color

Yes those bits at the bottom of the EVF/LCD work as expected.

I would like to have a video overlay that relates to those meters and that's what the false colour seemingly use to be. The small rainbow raw meter on the right of the histogram clearly shows red when shining the torch down it. Anyone new to the camera would expect the Video overlay to mirror that meter and according to the manual Red has published it does.

I thought the video overlay was all about exposure, that that was it's sole purpose, if you're now suggesting we shouldn't be judging exposure using it then what is it for?
Click to expand...

Video level overlay is doing what it says Paul - showing you Video Level.

And it's the new FLUT™ color science prevents that RGB signal from clipping as the sensor trends towards clip.

I'd recheck the Build 30 Ops Guide because it should not be saying what you are suggesting.
 
Hi Stuart,

To quote Build 30.5.0 manual:

"VIDEO (PREVIOUSLY FALSE COLOR)...

... Purple represents Super-Black, Dark Blue represents Black, Teal represents 3-stops under 18% Gray, Green represents 18% Gray, Pink represents Skin Tone, Straw represents White, and Yellow, Orange and RED represent various degrees of singal clipping in RGB space."

This is followed by a table with IRE values for those colours and if you turn to page 52 there's a helpful chart displaying those colours too.

How else should I or anyone else read that? At no point does it say "But you'll never see Purple, orange or red because FLUT is stopping the RGB signal from clipping or entering Super Black, unless you intentionally mess around with the settings so that darker bits are darker and clipping bits are more clippier, and yes you won't see Purple in the overlay even if you're in the darkest of dark rooms with zero light nor will you see orange or red even if you were pointing the camera directly at the sun..."

In all honesty Stuart do you think it is now better than it was previously?

Thanks
Paul
 
Stewart, The new exposure false color is fabulous. Seems many are stuck in the past. As a DP, I want to know what's clipping and what's in the noise floor. If I'm trying match faces within a scene, I'll use my meter. I'm very pleased with build 30.5. I guess it needs to be explained to everyone because it's a novel approach. Perhaps I'm naive, but given that Flut protects my future RGB pipeline, why should I care about RGB anymore? Exposure tools are all about the values hitting the raw sensor; as it should be. Pure Genius.
 
B30 and False Color

B30 and False Color

Appreciate that perspective Rob.

We are comfortable with the way the camera is set up in Build 30, glad to hear you like it too.

For the customer base that's not yet comfortable, we'll continue the education process.
 
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