I love quoting to student productions...

[paulherrin]

i'm not going to argue you with you about the meaning of semantics. haha, i'm sorry that i've made you hate me! i have great pity for you.

and please, when you're talking to other people that aren't me... use some manners.

i don't care if you're an asshole to me, but i actually care about other people.

best of luck, then?

 

[Steve Das]

I live in a university town, and in my opinion, film major is the new English major. Lots of kids doing it because it is a fun and interesting way to get a degree. It breeds quantity, not quality.

10 or 20 years ago would have agreed with this..but pretty much now
the word is out that film is not a Get Rich Quick Scheme.

Who would want to spend years and $$$ in a major and then have people
wanting you to work for free when you're starting out and can't get in the union.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I live in a university town, and in my opinion, film major is the new English major. Lots of kids doing it because it is a fun and interesting way to get a degree. It breeds quantity, not quality.

It's a pretty useless degree if you ask me, I don't think anyone hires crew based on wether or not they have a degree.

 

[Michael Dearworth]

Shawn had to *work* or take up a *loan* to get that equipment. He hasn't been blessed with it. He earned it.

Shawn wasn't blessed with anything, his camera wasn't a gift from God that he should feel inclined to share with low income film students. He payed for the camera himself and if he wants to rent it out to students he can, but if he doesn't he shouldn't be guilted. I'm sorry if this comes off as harsh, but it's the truth.

Agreed. He's under no obligation to rent his camera to anyone, nor should he be expected to. If he does decide to rent it out, he's not being rude by doing it under his own conditions.

 

[Keegan O'Brien]

i'm not going to argue you with you about the meaning of semantics. haha, i'm sorry that i've made you hate me! i have great pity for you.

and please, when you're talking to other people that aren't me... use some manners.

i don't care if you're an asshole to me, but i actually care about other people.

best of luck, then?

How was I an asshole? For disagreeing with you? It is an extreme hyperbole comparison and your wording was poor with your blessed comment. And I don't know about you but I never feel such a strong emotion as hate towards people I meet on the internet and don't even know; don't be so over dramatic. Way to make a huge judgement on someone's personality based solely off of me disagreeing with you, yet another hyperbole...

 

[paulherrin]

attitudes speak for themselves. and continue to do so.

good day.


if anyone has a personal problem with me, be respectful and professional and send me private correspondence.

 

[Keegan O'Brien]

attitudes speak for themselves. and continue to do so.

good day.

Yeah, because reading text on the internet is such an accurate way to judge someone's attitude... even if they apologize for seeming harsh. :rolleyes5:

Get off your high horse of nobility and self righteousness man.

 

[Chris Henze]

I'd bet anybody in film school who has a chance at being a professional is going to shoot with the best camera they can afford, even if it's an iPhone, and do a great job. All the pros out there know what I'm talking about.

What I find most frustrating about this, is all the people saying they're filmmakers and don't have anything to offer, adding a background noise that can confuse clients and unnecessarily drive prices down. The professional arts are always full of pretenders and I'd put forth a major indicator of that, would be, any student who is wasting resources trying to shoot their student film on a red is not worth haggling with. I'd hope any student who says "I must shoot my film on a red.", would realize their mistake and head in another direction all together and stop waisting their time.

I fully expect to rub the "pretenders" the wrong way and hear from them here. The pros who may by chance see this will be laughing at them.

 

[paulherrin]

apology accepted.

please accept mine as I was out of line as well. i hope we can be cool from now on.

 

[jake blackstone]

I work with students A LOT. Inevitably, they're polite, professional and great listeners. Occasionally I do get requests for small discount, they're students after all, but usually, they already know the drill, as I mostly get student work based on their peers recommendations. No complaints here...

 

[Kenneth Elkington]

I live in a university town, and in my opinion, film major is the new English major. Lots of kids doing it because it is a fun and interesting way to get a degree. It breeds quantity, not quality.

Being both a film major, and an English major, I can see where you're coming from. Some people do it for expediency, some people do it because they're passionate, and can actually get something out of it.

Studying film in college is certainly not going to be a revelation for someone who already loves film, but it's been a treasure trove of experience just because of the assignments, and the restrictions that you wouldn't think to place on yourself.

Just keep in mind that not all film students are doing it because they think it will be easy.

 

[Mike Van Laanen]

I just graduated from a MFA film program. Insurance was available to all students through the university for FREE. We just had to fill out some forms and get some signatures from our professors. Not sure why a film school would not have a means for students to get insurance for their shoots.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Who would want to spend years and $$$ in a major and then have people
wanting you to work for free when you're starting out and can't get in the union.

uh, it happens all the time. I get resumes from young graduates every week in this very situation - only they don't think they will be working for free or for cheap...they think they can get hired on the basis of their university work, and they don't really understand the sacrifices or the mind-set which are required to actually succeed.

I have a Ph.D. and used to teach (film history, not production) for this very same university, so I know what I'm talking about...very consistently in the classroom, there's about 30% mediocrity present. And yet, the ones who are just trying to get through pay the same amount of money for their degree as the 10% gunners who are strongly motivated and/or truly talented.

My point is that when a student phones for a quote, the odds are quite high that they are not in that 10% - which is just my opnion, based on 12 years of university teaching and another 10 years in production, 5 of which have been spent sifting through internship and employment apps. The rockstars are few and far between - definitely, they are out there, but they are few and far between.

This is actually a reason to be rather forgiving of student requests, by the way, not condemning. It's just the reality, so set your expectations, as a rental company, low. I actually enjoyed working with the student population, but I know a lot about their work ethics and work habits. The range is rather broad.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

As a student myself, I have to agree with Meryem. Any film program will usually have a small number of hard-working students who understand how much they have to learn and what their limitations are, and a large number of lazy, pretentious a-holes who think that everything they make is incredible because they made it.

Last semester I got a 1-line email from a kid asking me to "shoot sound" for his "vid-prod project". I was like, seriously dude, if you want me to hold your boom pole for free, would it hurt to be a little professional about it?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Occasionally I teach filmmaking at university. The university is so badly equipped that I gave up working with their stuff (except lighting gear) but let the students use my facility for free, including my Red package. In times where the public authorities are hardcore under financed and technical development calls for permanent investments that these organizations cannot keep up with, successful education needs private initiative and sponsorship.

Not that I'm rich, on the contrary, but my wife and I can feed the family and pay the bills with filmmaking which is great. When I was in my early twenties I builded up my career upon the generosity of producers, companies such as Kodak or Agfa, labs, rental houses, you name it. I felt always very grateful regarding the support I received and now it's my turn.

Hans

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I was on a Student Set and they were talking about this course they were taking on how to get Government Grants, I went on a Rant. I said, "See that Truck Driver over there, He'd probably rather be shooting a movie, why would you want to steal from him so you could make a film". You're just stealing from taxpayers so you can indulge yourself. Why steal from taxpayers so you can make a movie? Raise money from people who want to invest, don't steal it from the taxpayer. They were silent, I don't think they knew what I was talking about.

On the flip side we had a guest speaker in school come in once--it was going to be him sharing his experience in getting his feature financed. When the first lesson he gave and wrote across the white board in giant letters was "Get a Good Lawyer" (circling it a few times for good effect) I knew that wasn't going to be a class I was going to learn anything from. Essentially it was on how to be as dishonest as was legally possible to get investors without being liable.

I take that back, I learned a ton! The producer who brought him in to speak later tried to get me involved with one of their projects. I was thinking during the whole pitch "I was at the class you arranged! I know this is all bullshit!" haha.

I'm more than happy to help someone who is honest and open with me. But as soon as they bullshit me I'm out. Don't tell me you have a $10m feature lined up next--tell me why I should help you today, tell me why *this* project is worth my energy and attention.

 

[Mark Collins]

Being a soon-to-be-former student myself, I hate getting free gear. I like being paid myself, so I would rather pay people what I owe them. That's not to say I'll pass up free gear or discounts, just that I will always find a way to offer something of value to the person giving me gear.

For example, I work at a certain rental house right now in Toronto. They'll give me free gear on a couple of conditions, and those being that I do all my pre-production work properly, and that I bring in a case of beer for the guys to share. Granted I'm not taking a package truck out, just enough gear to do what I need to do. And if the production has money, I insist that they spend as much as they can on the gear, and then get what they can for free.

With regards to student productions and film schools....I hate them. I hate them so much. Out of 3 years in film school, I've had to spend the last 6 weeks of my internship at said rental house unlearning all the bullshit I have been fed and replacing it with things of actual value (how to properly do paperwork, making sure all of my shit is in order and how to treat people in the industry, as well as how to be professional).

None of this is taught right in school, or at least my school anyway.

 

[Jay Gannon]

I was on a Student Set and they were talking about this course they were taking on how to get Government Grants, I went on a Rant. I said, "See that Truck Driver over there, He'd probably rather be shooting a movie, why would you want to steal from him so you could make a film". You're just stealing from taxpayers so you can indulge yourself. Why steal from taxpayers so you can make a movie? Raise money from people who want to invest, don't steal it from the taxpayer. They were silent, I don't think they knew what I was talking about.

Absolute rubbish, grants are there to help establish and promote industry. Very very few movies would be made without grants and tax breaks, in fact its probably the primary decider in wether a production gets made or not. Students are by far the smallest receivers of grants compared with privately financed productions availing of tax incentives.

If you work on any commercial set in the US or most of Europe you are also 'stealing' from that taxpayer.

As as for it being 'stealing' try living in a world without tax and government support.. Somalia for example, I hear Mogadishu has a flourishing production market.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Having recently been a student myself - and not even a film student (Psychology + Sociology Major), I can certainly understand the need to catch a few breaks here and there - especially if people are looking to work with great technology instead of little prosumer cameras.

However, I think students should be educated. They need to know basic things about the industry like:

1) If you want to rent a few tens of thousands of dollars of equipment, you are going to need some insurance. It doesn't matter if it's a lens package or a bunch of grip equipment, someone spent a lot of money on that and they need to protect their investment.

2) Professional courtesy. People are generally nice, and are usually open to working at a discount with motivated students. But don't hire someone in advance and leave them out to dry the day before - that's a really good way to ruin relationships before you even really get started. In business, reliability can be more important than anything else.

3) Knowledge is out there for the taking, you might just have to look for it. These forums, especially, provide an unbelievable wealth of information about everything filmmaking.

Frankly, I think these are basic production fundamentals. People should be taught these things before they end up asking to rend $50,000 of equipment.

 

[Peter Mosiman]

Now I'm not saying that this doesn't happen with other clients, but students account for a vast majority of my issues. This makes me not want to work with students. I find that the professionalism encountered on a student set is just non existent, and at time downright dangerous. And there's no excuse, look at people like Joseph Hutson for example, he' young and at the point where if he walked into my office to rent me I would immediately have alarm bells ringing in my head, but time and time again he's shown himself to be professional and trustworthy to many people, and its opening doors for him, big doors.

Students need to realize that for many of us this is our livelihood, we need our equipment to put food on the table, so don't insult me by offering me 100 dollars a day, don't treat me and my equipment like crap when I'm on set, don't try and come to me without insurance, unless your putting 50k in escrow to pay me for loss of equipment and work while I replace it.

Basically treat me with the same respect I treat you and we will have a fantastic working relationship, don't and I'm liable to turn you away. And the productions that have that professionalism and respect are the ones that have prospered at the film festivals and at the ad company meetings, because it breeds an atmosphere of success when everyone on set is working together and has a healthy respect for each others jobs, thats when great cinema is made in my opinion. If you don't have the budget for a big production, then come and talk to me, explain the situation, tell me why I should give a discount, and ask nicely for god sake, please and thank you get you a long way in my office and the office of pretty much everyone I know.

Don't demand, be polite and pleasant and we can work well, students, small companies, big companies, its all the same ethos.

Jay,

As a just about to graduate student, I have to say that I know the type of student you are talking about. I have never been that kind of student, at least not to my knowledge. I have been on a set, either commercial, short film, feature film or music video, both pay and free(most) at least one day every week last year (2010) and just about so this year(2011) and quite a few in '09 and '08 when I first started out, but those were just silly in comparison to last year and this year. I have been on sets with all sorts of people, obviously, and I can tell you first hand that as a student, we are often regarded as being unprofessional. Now, I completely understand that there are MANY students out there who deserve that comment and have huge egos, etc etc however, there are a decent amount of us students out there who are professionals. I would count myself as one of them. I have been extremely fortunate enough to find other students at my school and in the city of Chicago that also count themselves as professionals when it comes to working on set.
I hope your experience with some of us changes. Joseph is a hell of a dude. In my opinion, a model for students to follow. Ask a million questions, be super polite, and show respect. It goes so far.

Cheers,
Peter Mosiman