I Hate Screenwriters

[alexwhitmer]

So, as I put the career back together, I thought I'd retrace my old footsteps and go back to the screenwriter forums. That was stupid. I don't know what it is about them that generates so much arrogance, animosities and just plain trolling for arguments. You can't start a single thread, or comment on an exisiting one without being called an idiot, useless, or that your work sucks and therefore you can offer no valid advice. In seven years, it has not changed one iota. There is an uncomfortable comfort knowing that.

That said, where I find the greatest feedbacks and encouragement as a screenwriter in the field of filmmaking is in the filmmaker forums. Hands down. Not that they are attitude free, but somehow the guys and gals shlepping the cameras, interacting with all of the unique diciplines, and seeing story in a more dissected but cinematic point of view makes them - I don't know - user friendly.

I frequented the screenwriter forums during my first few years learning the craft , and took many a lashing. When I finally grew weary of it, I starting poking around looking for other options and stumbled on a few filmmaker forums, including Red. Then everything changed, and I started getting short films produced, which eventually led to feature work with one in the can and a few more in development.

Things get done among filmmakers. Screenwriters just can't bitch enough. I actually had my fill during the strike some few years back. I was getting thumped for writing during the strike - I'm non-union and forever will be - and there were just endless arguemnts that 'without us there would be no industry.' 'We are the kings!' And on and on and on, and they gave zero value to anyone else' contribution to the whole. Of the 100-ish screenwriters (as opposed to filmmakers that write and film their own material) I know or have known, maybe ten at best embrace the cooperative and collaborative nature of filmmaking. They understand that the guy or gal frantically sewing buttons on a last-minute costume change is just as valuable to the finished film as the writer, the director, or the bestboy.

The hostilities are just endless and predictable as punch. God I hate screenwriters.

alex

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

sooo, you're a screenwriter then Alex?

Was it intentional irony you came on here bitching about screenwriters bitching too much?

 

[alexwhitmer]

Intentional irony, yes. Funny that.

Letting off steam after a sound beating for saying something to the effect that all feedback is valid, whether it be from a produced writer or not.

Anyways, back to the filmmaker forums. I can already feel the love.

a

 

[paulherrin]

ah... just write. you can hang out with us

 

[Robino_J]

All feedback is valid around here!

---> just testing if i'm going to get a beating for saying that...

EDIT: Alex just make sure you don't talk about other high speed cameras, digital still cameras, 2.5K cameras and also "sponsored" camera tests and everything should be fine

 

[Mark Toia]

Hi found a great screen writer !!!! out of 50 that I have tried! Finally!!! Your correct in saying that they are all crazy !
And I'm keeping this guy close to me. !

If anyone wants his name, PM me...

 

[Erich Ocean]

When I finally grew weary of it, I starting poking around looking for other options and stumbled on a few filmmaker forums, including Red.

Not sure I consider "RedUser" a filmmaker forum, but whatever. What other filmmaker forums have you found? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[Will Keir]

Filmmakers are awesome, so are screenwriters, it's just tuff to find what fits for you.

i am one of the guys that wants to get out and shoot but the more i do this, the more i understand the value of a well written script and planning. we've been on the hunt for the right screenwriter for the last year and a half, at some point you just decide, i am the right screenwriter and begin. it helps to have put all the time and energy into the right gear, EPiC camera for one, so now when the script is in working order you can shoot. Creative freedom for those willing to dig enough ditches.

So, as I put the career back together, I thought I'd retrace my old footsteps and go back to the screenwriter forums. That was stupid. I don't know what it is about them that generates so much arrogance, animosities and just plain trolling for arguments. You can't start a single thread, or comment on an exisiting one without being called an idiot, useless, or that your work sucks and therefore you can offer no valid advice. In seven years, it has not changed one iota. There is an uncomfortable comfort knowing that.

That said, where I find the greatest feedbacks and encouragement as a screenwriter in the field of filmmaking is in the filmmaker forums. Hands down. Not that they are attitude free, but somehow the guys and gals shlepping the cameras, interacting with all of the unique diciplines, and seeing story in a more dissected but cinematic point of view makes them - I don't know - user friendly.

I frequented the screenwriter forums during my first few years learning the craft , and took many a lashing. When I finally grew weary of it, I starting poking around looking for other options and stumbled on a few filmmaker forums, including Red. Then everything changed, and I started getting short films produced, which eventually led to feature work with one in the can and a few more in development.

Things get done among filmmakers. Screenwriters just can't bitch enough. I actually had my fill during the strike some few years back. I was getting thumped for writing during the strike - I'm non-union and forever will be - and there were just endless arguemnts that 'without us there would be no industry.' 'We are the kings!' And on and on and on, and they gave zero value to anyone else' contribution to the whole. Of the 100-ish screenwriters (as opposed to filmmakers that write and film their own material) I know or have known, maybe ten at best embrace the cooperative and collaborative nature of filmmaking. They understand that the guy or gal frantically sewing buttons on a last-minute costume change is just as valuable to the finished film as the writer, the director, or the bestboy.

The hostilities are just endless and predictable as punch. God I hate screenwriters.

alex

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

The art of writing -conceiving a universe, the characters who inhabit it, and their motivations- will literally take a true writer to other worlds...and for a few hours each day we are there, eventually emerging from our self-imposed exile, only to return the next day and hopefully make sense of it all.

Writing a screenplay -whether feature length narratives, hour long drama, half hour, or documentary- is anything but a simple task. If so, everyone would be doing it.

Very few people -and by 'them' I mean real writers- understand how we think, and what we need to do to get there. We are different birds. I don't know of these people Alex speaks of, though I'm sure they exist. I just don't spend any time on any other forums since I don't see the point. I'm not into writing competitions or whining about how nobody gets my work -I'm into making a living writing, directing, and invariably producing. And get this -I actually believe in collaboration with my actors so the dialogue (or lack thereof) can be as genuine as possible. Thankfully, commissioning editors, distributors, and co-producers agree I've got something sensible to say. If not, I couldn't stand behind these words.

Those who think they can write -even though they've never written anything prior to getting into the bizness- are delusional. Final Draft can do a lot by way of formatting, but that in and of itself means nothing. Try reading the words aloud for 8-10 pages. Generally, cringe-inducing...and it happens more often than not (needing a few more drafts with some serious script editing).

I have to read all manner of scripts all the time because of our provincial tax credit. It attracts bottom feeders with scripts that have no business being produced...but because our tax credit is so good they get made (somehow the director is going to save that polished turd!)

In closing, I don't hate screenwriters. I am one of them (to be fair, a writer/director so perhaps I am a bit different). Just as there are dirty cops and inept politicians we shouldn't cast aspersions: there are a few good ones out there.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

So, as I put the career back together, I thought I'd retrace my old footsteps and go back to the screenwriter forums. That was stupid. I don't know what it is about them that generates so much arrogance, animosities and just plain trolling for arguments. You can't start a single thread, or comment on an exisiting one without being called an idiot, useless, or that your work sucks and therefore you can offer no valid advice. In seven years, it has not changed one iota. There is an uncomfortable comfort knowing that.

That said, where I find the greatest feedbacks and encouragement as a screenwriter in the field of filmmaking is in the filmmaker forums. Hands down. Not that they are attitude free, but somehow the guys and gals shlepping the cameras, interacting with all of the unique diciplines, and seeing story in a more dissected but cinematic point of view makes them - I don't know - user friendly.

I frequented the screenwriter forums during my first few years learning the craft , and took many a lashing. When I finally grew weary of it, I starting poking around looking for other options and stumbled on a few filmmaker forums, including Red. Then everything changed, and I started getting short films produced, which eventually led to feature work with one in the can and a few more in development.

Things get done among filmmakers. Screenwriters just can't bitch enough. I actually had my fill during the strike some few years back. I was getting thumped for writing during the strike - I'm non-union and forever will be - and there were just endless arguemnts that 'without us there would be no industry.' 'We are the kings!' And on and on and on, and they gave zero value to anyone else' contribution to the whole. Of the 100-ish screenwriters (as opposed to filmmakers that write and film their own material) I know or have known, maybe ten at best embrace the cooperative and collaborative nature of filmmaking. They understand that the guy or gal frantically sewing buttons on a last-minute costume change is just as valuable to the finished film as the writer, the director, or the bestboy.

The hostilities are just endless and predictable as punch. God I hate screenwriters.

alex

Writers chose to work alone, all set staff chose to work in groups. For sure different personality types.

 

[Toby Linden]

The art of writing -conceiving a universe, the characters who inhabit it, and their motivations- will literally take a true writer to other worlds...and for a few hours each day we are there, eventually emerging from our self-imposed exile, only to return the next day and hopefully make sense of it all.

Writing a screenplay -whether feature length narratives, hour long drama, half hour, or documentary- is anything but a simple task. If so, everyone would be doing it.

Very few people -and by 'them' I mean real writers- understand how we think, and what we need to do to get there. We are different birds. I don't know of these people Alex speaks of, though I'm sure they exist. I just don't spend any time on any other forums since I don't see the point. I'm not into writing competitions or whining about how nobody gets my work -I'm into making a living writing, directing, and invariably producing. And get this -I actually believe in collaboration with my actors so the dialogue (or lack thereof) can be as genuine as possible. Thankfully, commissioning editors, distributors, and co-producers agree I've got something sensible to say. If not, I couldn't stand behind these words.

Those who think they can write -even though they've never written anything prior to getting into the bizness- are delusional. Final Draft can do a lot by way of formatting, but that in and of itself means nothing. Try reading the words aloud for 8-10 pages. Generally, cringe-inducing...and it happens more often than not (needing a few more drafts with some serious script editing).

I have to read all manner of scripts all the time because of our provincial tax credit. It attracts bottom feeders with scripts that have no business being produced...but because our tax credit is so good they get made (somehow the director is going to save that polished turd!)

In closing, I don't hate screenwriters. I am one of them (to be fair, a writer/director so perhaps I am a bit different). Just as there are dirty cops and inept politicians we shouldn't cast aspersions: there are a few good ones out there.

Great post, Jeremy. I currently study screenwriting in addition to working as a freelance filmmaker (primarily in the corporate video world) and could not agree more. In Germany, the art of screenwriting is not as valued as in the US or Canada, I suppose. I cannot believe how often I hear things like "I guess I could write a screenplay, too. It doesn't seem hard." I never heard such nonsense regarding writing a novel. For me, it almost seems as if people generally think that writing a screenplay is less effort due to a minor word count when compared to novels. However, screenwriting is not easier or more comfortable to write than prose. In fact, good writing requires a tremendous amount of work and practice in general; no matter what the format is. One of the best quotes I've heard in a while was "You don't win a marathon by reading about it. You have to go out and walk."

That said, do you think that it has become harder for aspiring screenwriters to break into the industry and do you consider screenwriting a craft that is still worth pursuing? Would love to hear your comment on that matter.

Btw, I've followed REDUSER.net for quite a while now and have to admit that this is one of the best communities for filmmaking due to the sheer amount of talented people here.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Toby -I wrote two novels in my teens before the light went off...when I described scenes from one of them my aunt said to me, "Oh, that sounds like a movie." At that point I realized I had been writing novelized screenplays all along. Every scene I envisioned was literally being projected on a film screen. When I was told my characteriization wasn't up to snuff I rationalized that the actors would help flesh that aspect out and truly bring the characters to life...in my sub-conscious it was already there but I hadn't properly applied the gift.

If anything like the above resonates for you then yes, follow it. I consider myself to be very lucky -from a young age I knew I was a writer. I also knew that if I wanted to direct my scripts I would have to build my skills so when financiers or funders inevitably asked the question: what sort of experience does he have? I could show them a CV with over 100 hours of nationally broadcasted credits including writer, director, producer, editor, camera operator (usually a combination of several positions at once), some of which have won awards.

There are very few in the world who actually make a living -and by that I mean put food on the table for their families- by exclusively working in filmmaking. There are highs and lows as far as business goes (and one must not forget this is a business first and foremost), but every once in awhile you get to play with some really cool people who take part in the creation of the eventual asset. Hugely rewarding, especially when the film is done and shown to audiences around the world -and they applaud. It may sound trite, but with that introvert aspect of the writer in me, validation sure feels good, especially when it's a passion project and you've nurtured it along the way.

Filmmaking -much like building a revolutionary camera company from scratch- is not for the faint of heart.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Pro Screenwriters - good ones- rarely bitch - they are happy to get their scripts bought optioned etc and even more thrilled to see them actually get made -

I find it's film makers (who also write their own screenplays) are the most angst ridden. Least open to feedback and the most close minded
And are more often the most opinionated on boards... So go figure.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Writing a screenplay -whether feature length narratives, hour long drama, half hour, or documentary- is anything but a simple task. If so, everyone would be doing it.

Those who think they can write -even though they've never written anything prior to getting into the bizness- are delusional. Final Draft can do a lot by way of formatting, but that in and of itself means nothing. Try reading the words aloud for 8-10 pages. Generally, cringe-inducing...and it happens more often than not (needing a few more drafts with some serious script editing)..

I strongly disagree with the delusional bit. Screen writing is incredible hard, and outside of most people capabilities, but not impossible. It's a process, and can be a fun one. You should be encouraging people to write not bashing them. I agree with your second statement that you also need realistic, and reading the stuff you write and letting other read is necessary. Taking harsh criticism is even more important. But what's that saying "He who dares, wins!"

There are different breads of screen writers, and Alex I think you just may identify better with the writer/director groups, which they are a lot of them here. Often they write as means to direct. Some are great at it, and others are great at getting films made, just too bad they can't write better.

 

[Vance Colvig]

Jeremy, you are fortunate as Winnipeg is far far from Hollywood, and you also sound like a passionate and well grounded professional. There is alot of arrogant attitude in this industry, mostly a cover up for personal self doubt and insecurities in my opinion. I think Alex is refering to the delusional puffer fish that seem to populate the screen writer forums. My experience of the vast majority of people posting on Reduser (and maybe similar forums,although I don't have enough time in my day to go to others, so I don't really know) are initially either looking for assistance or offering it. For the most part a well meaning group. It sounds like Alex is just stating her experience of the personalities that populate screen writer forums, and no doubt why you don't bother going there. You are probably more interested in getting your ideas and visions on paper and getting them out there than reading blather anyway. Good fortune to you both. If this industry needs anything, it is good and well written story. It all starts with you.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I love writing... But I truly hate writing...

 

[Toby Linden]

I love writing... But I truly hate writing...

"I hate to write, but love to have written." For me, the most rewarding time is when you hear your script being performed for the first time. When the words you carefully crafted suddenly come to life and slowly turn into a more meaningful and visual medium. That's when writing really pays off.

 

[George Butterfield]

They understand that the guy or gal frantically sewing buttons on a last-minute costume change is just as valuable to the finished film as the writer, the director, or the bestboy.

I know what you mean.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Writing for me is so much fun...the difficult part is to slow down the brain from going in too many ideas or directions! I have at least a dozen projects all in various stages...one will grab my imagination for a time and I will nurture it for a time, then slip into another world or three.

As for not encouraging -I certainly wouldn't want to muzzle the next great writer...the point is too many people think it's so easy -you are born with it, or you aren't. With enough practice, say as an editor, sure you can learn enough about story to appreciate what is needed, and what will end up on the deleted scenes chapter of the Bluray. One can become a better writer through doing -that's absolutely true...I find my life experience and honing the craft means I'm better than I was 20 years ago (I'm now 39). The ideas in my youth are just as good -and relevant- but the craft has taken a noticeable jump...and I can actually thank Telefilm Canada for having their development system to do that. I've had the great fortune of being able to enlist more experienced writers to help me with treatments or successive drafts, and they do get better....the next battleground ends up being the fight for certain important ideas to continue into the production draft.

Being Ojibway, a lot of my stories come from our people and our communities (write what you know, or at least has some truth or authenticity to it to get your creative juices flowing)...as such, I've pushed beyond that three act structure thingy in some projects such as Path Of Souls. It may not always work or be suited to a given narrative, but traditional storytelling is not so formulaic. And entities such as Telefilm are starting to recognize that (although I should point out they have taken chances on non-traditional narratives such as The Fast Runner a decade ago).

If only the studios and networks could get away from some of the hacks who are continually brought in to 'fix' one problem or another...in the end when you watch and wonder, did that A-list actor or actress really say that? Come on, they should know better (or the director at least). Oh, and here's the next line of dialogue word for word...

 

[Will Keir]

And get this -I actually believe in collaboration with my actors so the dialogue (or lack thereof) can be as genuine as possible.

Very smart way to do things, most actors we admire rewrite scripts. Marlon Brando did it, James Dean too. Truth in action and truth word, and if it does not feel believable, adapt. I think that's the difference in Novels and Films, books are inflexible where films are in constant change.

I've had the opportunity to read and act some well written scenes, in those moments nothing needs to be changed, nothing added, they can be perfect.

Those who think they can write -even though they've never written anything prior to getting into the bizness- are delusional.

You are probably right and in my experience it does feel like writers are born not made but where one man, such as yourself, sees delusions, another man, such as myself, sees challenge and opportunity. Remember this isn't a goal I'm looking to accomplish, it is a journey I'm already on.

I have the funding to hire a screenwriter for our story and this would suit me best, but how long am I going to search for the "right" guy and where do I find him/her? What happens if I fail to find them? My film is never realize, the story is never told?