I got a case of "The Reds" - a thread for Feature Writer/Directors

[Jeremy Torrie]

This is one of the interesting dilemmas with the intro of RED. What was once unaffordable is now available to pretty much anyone who wishes to incur the expense. Some cool things will likely come about as a result of the experimentation, but there are fundamentals that have to be met.

I see this strictly in the sense of a cinematographic tool to help with projects we've professionally developed with notes and coverage from distributors and broadcasters (the end user/investor). Will this camera package bring down the overall budget? Absolutely...no need for courier and lab charges and transfers to HD SR or otherwise. But it is only a tool to achieve the telling of the story, which should have its audience defined before anything is shot. Really, think about what you're shooting and why.

Storyline is in your head...that calls for disaster. The only way an investor is going to allow you to experiment is if you've got a proven track record, otherwise you are the investor (and maybe some family members too). It's best to shoot with a DVX if this is what you're aiming for. RED sounds like overkill.

I'm as much an artist as anybody (I get paid to write, direct and produce, and sometimes edit other works, and camera too) but you have to think business too. Above anything it comes down to the script. Good actors will fall in love with the story and the journey the character must take.

 

[Curran Giddens]

I will have a script, but even if I did have enough money for known actors, I would still rather use unknown actors. One benefit from using unknown actors over know actors -- you don't get taken out of the story by the fact that you know the person from other films.

Of course, if Angelina Jolie wants to be in my movie, well, the story does have a "Lara Croft Tomb Raider" aspect to it....

 

[number6]

Storyline is in your head...that calls for disaster. The only way an investor is going to allow you to experiment is if you've got a proven track record, otherwise you are the investor (and maybe some family members too). It's best to shoot with a DVX if this is what you're aiming for. RED sounds like overkill.

I'm as much an artist as anybody (I get paid to write, direct and produce, and sometimes edit other works, and camera too) but you have to think business too. Above anything it comes down to the script. Good actors will fall in love with the story and the journey the character must take.

Torrie, there's no doubt we are talking apples and oranges here... you're the apple and I am the orange...(maybe orang-utang is more appropriate). Anyway, I'm sure you are capable of doing satisfactory work and are well-respected among the business community. Probably will even be able to retire someday, and land a job teaching in some instituition. Yours is the tried and true model.

But in today's society, it just doesn't stick when one says that doing things other than the way they've always been done "calls for disaster".

Years ago, I once told my Dad that I had an idea where you inject liquid fertilzer into a sprinkler irrigation system and fertilize the crop through the leaves of the plant. He laughed and said, "You dummy... if that would have worked someone would already have thought of it!" A few years later someone else did.

So, I understand the culture of thinking that would believe that only what one already knows works, and just about everything else would be courting disaster. And for you, that may well be true. But there really are more ways than one to skin a cat. I know of six, personally, and a friend tells me there are at least a dozen that he knows about. And while I only use one favorite one, I do not necessarily think that the other ways will not work.

So, here again, we come back to the camera... for you it will solidify your model of filmaking... and for me and others, it will open up completely new ways of filmaking. IMAHO (the A is for apoplectic)

 

[Keith Alan Morris]

Number 6, I highly suggest contracts, releases, and use lawyers before you commit to shooting ONE FRAME. I didnt have them for my first feature and when it got distrib offers (i wasnt expecting that), i had to run back around and get everyone to sign off and it was a MAJOR MAJOR pain. I used contracts, releases and lawyers for my second feature, and it was a huge load off my mind. the thing is, in post, i replaced my scorer and my new one wouldn't sign right away, and i had a deadline, so i didnt think much of it. now, i may have to replace him bc he changed his mind about the terms.

as an indie, i suggest getting everyone to pay YOU to be in (or even crew) the film. its a calling card for them if they're an unknown. but thats a whole 'nother thread and you gotta really bring the goods.

 

[number6]

Number 6, I highly suggest contracts, releases, and use lawyers before you commit to shooting ONE FRAME. I didnt have them for my first feature and when it got distrib offers (i wasnt expecting that), i had to run back around and get everyone to sign off and it was a MAJOR MAJOR pain. I used contracts, releases and lawyers for my second feature, and it was a huge load off my mind. the thing is, in post, i replaced my scorer and my new one wouldn't sign right away, and i had a deadline, so i didnt think much of it. now, i may have to replace him bc he changed his mind about the terms.

as an indie, i suggest getting everyone to pay YOU to be in (or even crew) the film. its a calling card for them if they're an unknown. but thats a whole 'nother thread and you gotta really bring the goods.

I appreciate the advice, and will follow it. I had hoped there was a standardized form similar to a release form that would cover my behind, but I realize that is trying to oversimlify.

Your statement about getting actors and crew to actually pay to be in the film is intriguing, though. A token amount for a small interest might cover me arse. Will explore that option before things get off the ground. Looks like I've got plenty of time.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

I've actually done a lot outside of the conventional norm (and was one of the first independent prod co's to buy an HDcam and VTR), but when the stakes are higher and you're dealing with a few million bucks, you realize you have to be responsible, especially if you are one of the investors and have put up your house as collateral on a 2nd mortgage and your credit cards with debilitating interest...there is a very real cost to all of it, and it adds up quickly. And the thought of putting your family out on the street because you thought you'd wing it is as close to irresponsible as one can get...I don't play with fire -I've worked far too hard to lose what I value in life.

Don't get me wrong -I think films like Primer are awesome for pushing the envelope, but even they went with a solidly rehearsed script, storyboarded the hell out of it, and you could tell he set everything up meticulously so he didn't waste a dime. And the script was written and rewritten extensively.

What does RED enable me to do? Put more money back into the film -maybe it's more cash for the art department or a more ambitious lighting scheme from my DP or the dough to get a decent actor to do a cameo (and put him or her up in a reasonable hotel and fly them first class as a goodwill gesture because they're doing it for way less than their usual fee)...a film is collaboration from every single department. Sure you can do stuff with minimal crew -it is refreshing to work that way sometimes- but when you've got A-list talent and they are being forced to wait on you because you don't have your act together...they walk or sit in their trailer and call their agent to tell them what a hack you are, and how did he get conned into this? (I'm not saying this is my experience, but it's an example of stuff I have witnessed).

One must be intelligent to think outside the box and use the resources available to them to meet the end -in this case a story that is supposed to engage the viewer, have them enjoy what they're watching, and maybe get other people to watch it...and maybe even pay for the privilege.

 

[number6]

...but when the stakes are higher and you're dealing with a few million bucks, you realize you have to be responsible, especially if you are one of the investors and have put up your house as collateral on a 2nd mortgage and your credit cards with debilitating interest...there is a very real cost to all of it, and it adds up quickly. And the thought of putting your family out on the street because you thought you'd wing it is as close to irresponsible as one can get...I don't play with fire -I've worked far too hard to lose what I value in life.

...to get a decent actor to do a cameo (and put him or her up in a reasonable hotel and fly them first class as a goodwill gesture because they're doing it for way less than their usual fee)...a film is collaboration from every single department. Sure you can do stuff with minimal crew -it is refreshing to work that way sometimes- but when you've got A-list talent and they are being forced to wait on you because you don't have your act together...they walk or sit in their trailer and call their agent to tell them what a hack you are, and how did he get conned into this? (I'm not saying this is my experience, but it's an example of stuff I have witnessed).

One must be intelligent to think outside the box and use the resources available to them to meet the end -in this case a story that is supposed to engage the viewer, have them enjoy what they're watching, and maybe get other people to watch it...and maybe even pay for the privilege.

Torrie, my hat's off to you. I could never do what you do without being on the edge of a nervous breakdoun. That's why I will maintain my approach of throwing something against the screen and seeing if it sticks. If it doesn't, I'll put more spit in the mud and throw another batch up. I do not fear failure... but I do fear rote.

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

I've got a great way to deal with the Reds. Try to build a 5,000sq foot, three story house while you wait for your redone. One part of you, can't wait for your Red to come, while another part realizes that you have four months to build and sell a monster before your serial#s come up. Very stressful!!

I can say though from my very own personal experiance that the time just flies by.

Anybody need a house in nor-cal? Might throw in a script for those of you that use them. For those of you that dont..well..good luck

1200 sq foot theater/bar/pool hall w/16foot screen included.:construction:

 

[Keith Alan Morris]

my case of the reds leads me to ask: will the Red hold up in extreme heat? like Honduras Spring/Summer heat? 120 degrees f? equator-make-you-bald heat?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

One part of you, can't wait for your Red to come, while another part realizes that you have four months to build and sell a monster before your serial#s come up. Very stressful!!

lol. Did the same thing myself last year... Had to put both my current house at the time up for sale as well as the new spec house. Ended up moving into the new one and selling the old one even though it wasn't supposed to work that way. But I needed to move on to another project and needed the cash.

 

[Sean]

Heh. Try telling that to actors and investors. :umm:

If you watch the Criterion bonus disc of In the Mood for Love, Wong Kar Wai's actors spend half their time bitching that he doesn't use a script and just makes stuff up as he goes along. Malick does the same thing. I think this is the best kind of auteur filmmaking, but you have to be up front with your actors.

Yikes, no wonder I hated In the Mood For Love. Beautifully shot...and the most boring movie ever. Did it end better than the first hour? We couldn't stand anymore and walked out.

Pretty as it was, Malick's New World would have greatly benefited from a better script.

I'm hoping Redusers are as thorough in their screenwriting (or better yet, hiring of screenwriters) as they are in their careful analysis of image artifacts, dynamic range and workflow issues. Making up stories as you go along is for the MASTERS and the very lucky. If you can't write a good script with the luxury of months of thinking time, how can you possibly structure a good story on the fly during a two week shoot?

I should add to Jannard's list of "shooting mistakes": shoot without a script.

 

[Vincent Rice]

Torrie, my hat's off to you. I could never do what you do without being on the edge of a nervous breakdoun. That's why I will maintain my approach of throwing something against the screen and seeing if it sticks. If it doesn't, I'll put more spit in the mud and throw another batch up. I do not fear failure... but I do fear rote.

I admire your balls but the reality of it is that if you stick to this attitude you will likely be 'throwing stuff at the screen' for a good ten years before anything of value sticks. At some point you will learn a valuable lesson... Art is created in the nooks and crannies of structure and cultural resonance, not by pretending to ignore them.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Scripps? I doan need no stinkin' scripps!

Reason is, I have most of my storylines in my head. With Red, I will be able to shoot a scene multiple times with differing dialog, then use the best of the lot in edit.

?!?! How about instead of shooting the scene multiple times, you simply turn the camera off, put the lights away, send the crew home... and just workshop the scene beforehand with your actors? Use the best of what they say to make your script and THEN shoot.

Much cheaper - Red or no Red.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[number6]

Art is created in the nooks and crannies of structure and cultural resonance, not by pretending to ignore them.

Art? Art?? This is about making movies... not art. The triple XXX filmakers make art. I'm just hoping to create some entertainment. (Wouldn't mind mixing in an occasional one X scene ala those "art" people, though)

Really, I'm not putting doun script rigidity. It's just that I have in my head an outline and a general idea of what the dialogue will be about. As I said earlier, I will have one central line of dialogue in a scene and will shoot numerous and varied ways to get to that central (hopefully memorable) line. With RED, one can even let an actor have a shot at performing the scene the way it feels best for them. By having the freedom to affordably shoot take after take, in edit one can choose and use the one that grabs your goatee by the horns. And I do understand how those who are properly mentored or professionally trained, believe that their way is the best way.

But something I've seen over the years suggests that occasionally someone who attempts to do something they have not been trained for, because their thinking is not constrained can take a shortcut that just may be more scenic, as well as less tiring.

On the other hand, I respect all who challenge this particular course of action because it causes me to rethink if I'm capable of following that way, or if I should abandon that approach and "GO NORMAL!". (shudder-shudder)

 

[Bruce Allen]

As I said earlier, I will have one central line of dialogue in a scene and will shoot numerous and varied ways to get to that central (hopefully memorable) line. With RED, one can even let an actor have a shot at performing the scene the way it feels best for them.

But what are you going to do if your actor starts to suck more each take? Some of the best actors I've worked with get really tired really quickly. Others take a while to warm up. Timing it so that they are on all cylinders at their key moments is the real trick.

I like the freshness of your idea. It seems like you might have a voice and might make a good film. But the other part of me is wondering if you've put in enough time working with actors. Maybe you have a couple thousand hours' rehearsal experience and am tired of the way things are currently done or maybe you don't have any. I am interested, what is your previous directing / acting experience? How has it led you to decide to shoot in this way?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[number6]

But what are you going to do if your actor starts to suck more each take? Some of the best actors I've worked with get really tired really quickly. Others take a while to warm up. Timing it so that they are on all cylinders at their key moments is the real trick.

I like the freshness of your idea. It seems like you might have a voice and might make a good film. But the other part of me is wondering if you've put in enough time working with actors. Maybe you have a couple thousand hours' rehearsal experience and am tired of the way things are currently done or maybe you don't have any. I am interested, what is your previous directing / acting experience? How has it led you to decide to shoot in this way?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce, all good points. Let me address them, not necessarily in the order you posed them. First off, directing/acting experience=0. That is why I will be acting and directing my first film. Reason is, since I have no directing experience, I would be unlikely to direct a lot of inexperienced people to give me what I envision in their character, so the cast will be small. And since I will have only one other (co-lead) main character, I will know what I have in mind for myself, and should be able to deliver. The person I have in mind for a co-lead is someone I trust to handle the other role, because he emotes naturally. He would be the one constant that would probably be the driving force for any changes I would make on the fly for my character and even some of the lesser ones. (Problem is, I haven't even approached him about the part, since I do not want to commit to anything before all else falls into place. Besides, I might just be talking to someone someday and decide they were a better fit for the role.)

And, there will be only a few small parts that should be easily played by anyone who isn't self-concious about their part. This will likely be something I can overcome by letting them do the scene in their own way if they will agree to do a couple of takes my way. Besides, what little experience I've had with videoing, I found that most people actually gravitate to the front of a camera, and knowing which ones to encourage and which ones to settle doun to just being themselves will allow you what you need for a good edit. Besides, I don't remember many pictures getting bad reviews for bad acting in minor roles. And since there will only be 2 major ones, that will cut the odds doun considerably for less than stellar role playing.

And now for the overide... the fail-safe.... the fall back. By allowing the actors and crew (minimal... I will be lighting, editing, most of the camera work even.) a part of the project, they will be motivated to do their best work. And at the end, if an impartial screening shows I've missed the mark, I will submit the film to various film festivals. Why submit a failure? Because I believe in the story, and I also believe those who screen films for festivals can see through bad acting/production/editing etc. and know if a story works. If it does, then we (cast and crew are in for their fair share) distribute the proceeds from the sale. I keep the rights to the original movie, and if someone does it big budget, I release my little flop on DVD to the ridiculously curious.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Yikes, no wonder I hated In the Mood For Love. Beautifully shot...and the most boring movie ever. Did it end better than the first hour? We couldn't stand anymore and walked out.

Pretty as it was, Malick's New World would have greatly benefited from a better script.

Haha, well we will have to agree to disagree on this, as In the Mood and The New World are my favorite films of the last 10 years or so. :biggrin:

 

[Obin Olson]

I hope to be shooting our Teen Drama TV show on the RED, and our feature thriller ...along with some more made for mobile fun www.mobijokes.tv I can't even THINk how a MobiJoke will look on the RED!!

 

[Keith Alan Morris]

agreed, different strokes for different folks. number 6, i suggest shooting lots of natural light. keep your actors to two per scene as much as possible. make the smallest film you can make. you'll naturally focus on the characters and the dialogue more. my first film was shot this way--i sometimes got the scenes out to the actors the night before and it still worked out. but this was NYC and the actors are pros. (and i did 3 months of casting to get the right people.) we won best screenplay at a NYC fest and got taken to cannes and got distrib offers. ultimately, however, the studios said "too low budget, too indie." (then they stole the idea and made Anger Management.) if i wouldve looked at what i thought was a real film as RESEARCH, as i do now, and RESHOOT with all the trimmings, then we would've made something that crossed over, and gotten a real advance. what i'm saying is, do what you want, but shoot your rehearsals. call everything you shoot a Rehearsal--at least in your own mind.

 

[C.H.Haskell]

Scripts...yes!

I need a stack of 5 on my desk by tomorrow morning! Maybe I will write one tonight...maybe not.

I see RED People.

I think I will go ahead and reserve one now, I can afford 10%
Bon Voyage everyone on your RED journey. Salud, Proost, Cheers for the Red revolution.