I don't know, getting kind of bored...

[Rick Presas]

^^^ nicely put

 

[Joe Walker]

Okay, we got RED Rocket™™™, that's pretty cool, and Build 20 is changing the whole experience for current RED camera owners, but there really hasn't been anything going on for those of us outside the gate. Granted, Canon is making a killing right now with the 5D Mark II and that concerns me because along with that is the advent of the prototype HDR camera from Spheron and the new Vision Research Miro high-speed cameras and then there's the distant memory of the mockup of the 3D Panasonic video camera at NAB this year.

All of that combined just gives me a sense of despair in a way because we were all just waiting for a revolutionary 3K-resolution video camera and yet that vision, as useful and cool as it is, just isn't seeming so revolutionary anymore as the days go by. Look, I know that there is going to be a massive price tag on the HDR camera once it comes out and the Panasonic camera is at least a year or two away and that the Miro cameras are pretty much useless for a lot of folks due to their resolution but the fact is that they all are going to offer something the Scarlet, RED One, and Epic don't and that means that even though we're in store for some high resolution cameras, we're undoubtedly going to have new models come out that do have HDR capabilities, that do record in extremely high frame rates, and, don't doubt it, could be natively 3D. It just gets to the point where you wonder, "When is it going to end?"

Obviously you can try to work out a 3D solution with various rigs and some have experimented with in-post HDR video thanks to the RAW nature of the RED One's footage. However, all I can think is that the entire RED movement has come so far and overcome all kinds of criticism and slandering campaigns to become an industry-wide standard and now I can already see the smoke in the distance and signs of another battle to come. Yeah, we'll get our Scarlets and our Epics but not too long after all that will be heard is "Why doesn't the RED/Scarlet/Epic do this?" and so the battle rages on.

It's just depressing that all this camera stuff will come down to just one feature that the other cameras don't have. Look at the new HDV cameras, XDCAM/EX, and P2 cameras, there's nothing different about any of them, they all do 1080p and they all have some sort of 24p mode and all get about the same HD image quality at the end of the day. Yet what separates them from each other is just one feature, whether it be interchangeable lenses, an SDHC slot, somewhat adjustable frame rates, or an HD-SDI connection. So, once Sony, Canon, JVC, Panasonic, and their neighbors reach the 2K+ ballgame, what's to separate their solutions from RED's?

I don't know, maybe I'm just losing my taste for physical film production technology, it just seems to be getting really boring now. After seeing all of the new stuff at Siggraph this year, maybe I should just stick with 3D animation. Don't get me wrong, I'll probably end up getting a Scarlet but I'm starting to think that it would mostly end up being used for filming reference material or taking snapshots for texture work. Though, now that I think about it, I don't know what the Scarlet line's still photo capabilities are, hopefully they're more than 12 megapixel, otherwise I might have to wait or end up looking elsewhere...

This is why I only rent cameras and never buy them. I'll let someone else pay the depreciation costs or buy the next "great thing". The only thing you need to buy in this business, in my opinion, is a good desktop station with some kickass software. Everything else can be rented, and I do mean everything. You'll save yourself a heck of a lot of heartache that way.

:cheers2:

 

[Imran Farouk]

I dont know, I enjoy having my own cam, this 'depreciation' only comes in if you obviously buy one and barely use it, the upside with the scarlet and epic is that they are potentially more mobile then the RED One but also allow for still and motion, the still bit is where they will obviously be used a lot by users when not using the other mode...(obviously though given the capabilities of RED One with motion and no still maybe I'm wrong),

Anyway, if you plan to use the camera a lot and can find that you would make back the money yourself from using the camera, then you might as well buy it...obviously if otherwise then no point buying it...

Anyway, if your bored..September is my thoughts (only speculation)...its awfully quite on Jim and the teams front apart from all these upcoming announcements in terms of Scarlet and Epic...Jim said they are doing 5K tests if I remember rightly, so I'm begging september at that event brings something...if it doesn't...well meh...time flys...look at the time between when they were announced and the new specs were given and now....

The development of things is the same in every industry...Apple is constantly changing their stuff...so is microsoft...so is Google...every company does it...it only stops when the minds that run the companies stop thinking and innovating

 

[Rick Presas]

This is why I only rent cameras and never buy them. I'll let someone else pay the depreciation costs or buy the next "great thing". The only thing you need to buy in this business, in my opinion, is a good desktop station with some kickass software. Everything else can be rented, and I do mean everything. You'll save yourself a heck of a lot of heartache that way.

this is true, but when renting a camera for a feature length work, you end up spending nearly as much to rent a camera as you would have spent to buy it.

Buying a camera makes a lot more sense to me. A good camera in the hands of a sound freelancer will pay for itself within a few months.

As far as the computer goes, Heck, editing suites can be leased as well, and that way you never have to keep up with the (even more constantly) changing software and hardware updates.

in the hands of a capable and self-motivated person, its never really a question of "how much will it cost" but more a question of "how much money will it make me"

 

[Craig Schober]

in all fairness to the original poster, this is the red forum. it's a forum designed for gearheads. no one is discussing their scripts here. people are looking for jobs, networking and most importantly, trying to make informed decisions about present and future purchases. you all checked out this thread because it had a technology angle to it, not because it was posted by a filmmaker who had a great story to share. that's why i checked it out. we are all gearheads in some form. that's what happens when you create art with the help of bleeding edge tech.

that being said, i think that having 50 different hd cameras with little difference is actually good for the consumer and yet bad for the current market. more choices and more competition. don't worry about all the knock-off brands. they'll die out (panavision) or change (canon) to survive.

the only problem i have with the poster's argument is that he seems to be bored with all the excitement...like he's numb. there might not be any jawdropping announcements around the corner but red is here for the long haul. they have a lot of surprises they can spring on us over the next 5,10 20, etc. years.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Thank you, Craig, for understanding the whole intention of this thread. I'm a director who loves his toys. I like to stay informed about technology related to filmmaking so it can help make my films easier to do. I've spent a month and a half preparing three Nikon D90 shorts for the festival circuit and, just this morning I secured another batch of music rights. I don't know why I'm being attacked for this thread with rude comments and highly negative assumptions about my experience, age, and involvment with film.

Then again, I forget that I'm a little more informed than most because I started out getting into computers when I was in the seventh grade, long before I ever got into film. So, technically I started out as a techie and that's given me a knack for taking not of technical specifications of things and also knowing full well the whole concept of obsolescence in regards to technology. Yes, I'm often not too excited with the new camera on the block because after witnessing the growth from my Canon GL1, I can see that cameras are all the same as computer hardware, one camera does something different than the others, competition copies it, then another camera does something different, and the whole cycle repeats itself. The RED One broke this cycle by pushing through it and I've been a fan ever since. All I'm saying is that I can already see the competition heating things up and it's just going to get just as crazy as computer hardware is. I didn't say that my films would suffer or that I was giving up on being a filmmaker, I'm only speaking on behalf of the technical aspects of filmmaking today. I'm going to keep making films but I'm considering switching my medium in light of this fact, especially since we are in such tight economic times. If you can keep going along with the camera race, good for you, but when camera purchases have to come every so often, it's a whole different deal, especially with the industry changing like it is towards higher resolution and 3D stereoscopic exhibition.

Oh, and I'm also preparing to write yet another feature script this week, followed by two entire series of scripts for a couple of web/TV series that are in the works. Just wanting to clarify that I am busy, I'm not just sitting around doing nothing.

 

[Joe Walker]

this is true, but when renting a camera for a feature length work, you end up spending nearly as much to rent a camera as you would have spent to buy it.

For feature work, the rental prices come down...WAY DOWN! Heck I know of two rental houses that will let you rent a RED One with Arri Master Primes and all the bells and whistles for $25,000 per month or less depending on your negotiating skills. Even if your feature film took you three months to shoot, which God help you if that's the case, you're still way way way way under what all of that gear costs to own. Yes you do have more upgrades for computers and software, but in MOST cases those are not nearly as critical as what's happening in the ever expanding video camera world. Plus, with cameras of any kind, there is the constant maintenance factor that costs money as well. Lenses need collimating, mounts need re-aligning, tripod heads get screwed up, lights need bulbs, track wears out, etc. And most of that stuff is a tad more expensive than replacing video cards, ram, and graphics cards.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Rental prices are great for paying work. But if I just want to run out and shoot some stuff this afternoon then it's a huge PITA to go to a rental house and pick up what you need. It's also psychologically difficult for me to spend money in small increments. I don't have a problem dropping it on a FF35 scarlet, but if I am spending money every time I use it then you get into that "I have to make the most of this" which isn't terribly conducive to creativity. I like owning because I can feel like taking more risks.

 

[Zia]

The desirability of HDR has been recognized for decades but its wider usage was, until quite recently, precluded by the limitations imposed by the available computer processing power. Probably backup software the first practical application of HDRI was by the movie industry in late 1980s and, in 1985, Gregory Ward created the Radiance RGBE image file format which was the first (and still the most commonly used) High Dynamic Range Imaging file format. The first automated HDR image capture and processing was done by Charles Wyckoff, where differently exposed pictures were recorded as multiple layers in a photographic film in which each layer had different sensitivity. Local processing was performed to compress the dynamic range by tone remapping. Wyckoff generated hard drive recovery still pictures as well as motion pictures by combining different exposures together, using local neighbourhoods of the image area. This concept was applied to video cameras by a group from the Technion in Israel led by Prof. Y.Y.Zeevi who filed the first patent of this concept in 1988.In 1993 the first commercial medical camera was introduced that performed real time capturing of multiple images with different exposures cheap web hosting, and producing an HDR video image.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

I don't know why I'm being attacked for this thread with rude comments and highly negative assumptions about my experience, age, and involvment with film.

Well, your post did sound extremely negative, and a bit whiny and alarmist... You might not have meant that, but it is how it came off.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Thank you, Craig, for understanding the whole intention of this thread. I'm a director who loves his toys. I like to stay informed about technology related to filmmaking so it can help make my films easier to do. I've spent a month and a half preparing three Nikon D90 shorts for the festival circuit and, just this morning I secured another batch of music rights. I don't know why I'm being attacked for this thread with rude comments and highly negative assumptions about my experience, age, and involvment with film.

Then again, I forget that I'm a little more informed than most because I started out getting into computers when I was in the seventh grade, long before I ever got into film. So, technically I started out as a techie and that's given me a knack for taking not of technical specifications of things and also knowing full well the whole concept of obsolescence in regards to technology. Yes, I'm often not too excited with the new camera on the block because after witnessing the growth from my Canon GL1, I can see that cameras are all the same as computer hardware, one camera does something different than the others, competition copies it, then another camera does something different, and the whole cycle repeats itself. The RED One broke this cycle by pushing through it and I've been a fan ever since. All I'm saying is that I can already see the competition heating things up and it's just going to get just as crazy as computer hardware is. I didn't say that my films would suffer or that I was giving up on being a filmmaker, I'm only speaking on behalf of the technical aspects of filmmaking today. I'm going to keep making films but I'm considering switching my medium in light of this fact, especially since we are in such tight economic times. If you can keep going along with the camera race, good for you, but when camera purchases have to come every so often, it's a whole different deal, especially with the industry changing like it is towards higher resolution and 3D stereoscopic exhibition.

Oh, and I'm also preparing to write yet another feature script this week, followed by two entire series of scripts for a couple of web/TV series that are in the works. Just wanting to clarify that I am busy, I'm not just sitting around doing nothing.

I guess I get your overall point here, but I firmly believe that a camera like the Red One could be used effectively for at least another three to five years, if not more. The key is the filmmaker embracing it, getting the most out of it. I own a RED, yet I've grabbed my HV20 and messed around with it because it's a different tool, one that I can employ in ways I can't with the RED. It's so easy to get caught up in the technology game, but the reality is that five years ago people were making video content with tools that would by today's standards seem inadequate, but they did it and they got good results.

Keep in mind that RED is not sitting on their hands. I would not be surprised if Scarlet has a few surprises that were not mentioned when it was first announced. RED is well aware of what's going on with other camera manufacturers. At this point, I never underestimate what RED might be capable of doing. They are ambitious and they take risks. I don't see that changing, so I don't think you'll be bored when all is said and done.