I don't know, getting kind of bored...

[Zack Birlew]

Okay, we got RED Rocket™™, that's pretty cool, and Build 20 is changing the whole experience for current RED camera owners, but there really hasn't been anything going on for those of us outside the gate. Granted, Canon is making a killing right now with the 5D Mark II and that concerns me because along with that is the advent of the prototype HDR camera from Spheron and the new Vision Research Miro high-speed cameras and then there's the distant memory of the mockup of the 3D Panasonic video camera at NAB this year.

All of that combined just gives me a sense of despair in a way because we were all just waiting for a revolutionary 3K-resolution video camera and yet that vision, as useful and cool as it is, just isn't seeming so revolutionary anymore as the days go by. Look, I know that there is going to be a massive price tag on the HDR camera once it comes out and the Panasonic camera is at least a year or two away and that the Miro cameras are pretty much useless for a lot of folks due to their resolution but the fact is that they all are going to offer something the Scarlet, RED One, and Epic don't and that means that even though we're in store for some high resolution cameras, we're undoubtedly going to have new models come out that do have HDR capabilities, that do record in extremely high frame rates, and, don't doubt it, could be natively 3D. It just gets to the point where you wonder, "When is it going to end?"

Obviously you can try to work out a 3D solution with various rigs and some have experimented with in-post HDR video thanks to the RAW nature of the RED One's footage. However, all I can think is that the entire RED movement has come so far and overcome all kinds of criticism and slandering campaigns to become an industry-wide standard and now I can already see the smoke in the distance and signs of another battle to come. Yeah, we'll get our Scarlets and our Epics but not too long after all that will be heard is "Why doesn't the RED/Scarlet/Epic do this?" and so the battle rages on.

It's just depressing that all this camera stuff will come down to just one feature that the other cameras don't have. Look at the new HDV cameras, XDCAM/EX, and P2 cameras, there's nothing different about any of them, they all do 1080p and they all have some sort of 24p mode and all get about the same HD image quality at the end of the day. Yet what separates them from each other is just one feature, whether it be interchangeable lenses, an SDHC slot, somewhat adjustable frame rates, or an HD-SDI connection. So, once Sony, Canon, JVC, Panasonic, and their neighbors reach the 2K+ ballgame, what's to separate their solutions from RED's?

I don't know, maybe I'm just losing my taste for physical film production technology, it just seems to be getting really boring now. After seeing all of the new stuff at Siggraph this year, maybe I should just stick with 3D animation. Don't get me wrong, I'll probably end up getting a Scarlet but I'm starting to think that it would mostly end up being used for filming reference material or taking snapshots for texture work. Though, now that I think about it, I don't know what the Scarlet line's still photo capabilities are, hopefully they're more than 12 megapixel, otherwise I might have to wait or end up looking elsewhere...

 

[jimhare]

Boring?!!! It's the most exciting time in history!

I have never had as much fun as I have had in the last year, shooting RED. It has opened doors left and right and the sense of discovery on a daily basis is amazing.

I don't care about the technology, who else is doing it, who says what about whom and why.

I'm out there living my life with the most exciting tool I've seen in a LONG time and can't wait to wake up each morning and get out there with it.

I was out last night shooting a live concert at the Opera House with four other Red owners. Nowhere I'd rather be.

I prefer the Willy Wonka quote "We are the Music Makers, and we are the Dreamers of the Dreams..."

Jim

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

**mommy voice on**

"sweetie, only boring people are bored"

**mommy voice off**

 

[John Caballero]

Boy, some people have too much time in their hands. What a waste of words and time.

 

[Joseph Ward]

This is the best time in camera history. Red will still be ahead of the game and still push the industry. Red is not going to stop making other "brains", don't you worry. I welcome other companies to do the same, so we get better products for less $, sooner.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Okay, we got RED Rocket™™™, that's pretty cool, and Build 20 is changing the whole experience for current RED camera owners, but there really hasn't been anything going on for those of us outside the gate. Granted, Canon is making a killing right now with the 5D Mark II and that concerns me because along with that is the advent of the prototype HDR camera from Spheron and the new Vision Research Miro high-speed cameras and then there's the distant memory of the mockup of the 3D Panasonic video camera at NAB this year.

All of that combined just gives me a sense of despair in a way because we were all just waiting for a revolutionary 3K-resolution video camera and yet that vision, as useful and cool as it is, just isn't seeming so revolutionary anymore as the days go by. Look, I know that there is going to be a massive price tag on the HDR camera once it comes out and the Panasonic camera is at least a year or two away and that the Miro cameras are pretty much useless for a lot of folks due to their resolution but the fact is that they all are going to offer something the Scarlet, RED One, and Epic don't and that means that even though we're in store for some high resolution cameras, we're undoubtedly going to have new models come out that do have HDR capabilities, that do record in extremely high frame rates, and, don't doubt it, could be natively 3D. It just gets to the point where you wonder, "When is it going to end?"

Obviously you can try to work out a 3D solution with various rigs and some have experimented with in-post HDR video thanks to the RAW nature of the RED One's footage. However, all I can think is that the entire RED movement has come so far and overcome all kinds of criticism and slandering campaigns to become an industry-wide standard and now I can already see the smoke in the distance and signs of another battle to come. Yeah, we'll get our Scarlets and our Epics but not too long after all that will be heard is "Why doesn't the RED/Scarlet/Epic do this?" and so the battle rages on.

It's just depressing that all this camera stuff will come down to just one feature that the other cameras don't have. Look at the new HDV cameras, XDCAM/EX, and P2 cameras, there's nothing different about any of them, they all do 1080p and they all have some sort of 24p mode and all get about the same HD image quality at the end of the day. Yet what separates them from each other is just one feature, whether it be interchangeable lenses, an SDHC slot, somewhat adjustable frame rates, or an HD-SDI connection. So, once Sony, Canon, JVC, Panasonic, and their neighbors reach the 2K+ ballgame, what's to separate their solutions from RED's?

I don't know, maybe I'm just losing my taste for physical film production technology, it just seems to be getting really boring now. After seeing all of the new stuff at Siggraph this year, maybe I should just stick with 3D animation. Don't get me wrong, I'll probably end up getting a Scarlet but I'm starting to think that it would mostly end up being used for filming reference material or taking snapshots for texture work. Though, now that I think about it, I don't know what the Scarlet line's still photo capabilities are, hopefully they're more than 12 megapixel, otherwise I might have to wait or end up looking elsewhere...

perhaps you should read your Willy Wonka quote, I did, and felt a lot better
after reading that very bizarre rant. If you spent 1/10 as much energy worrying more about what kind of stories you are going to tell with all of this technology or 3D, Id say you were going to make a great film.
Lamenting about what camera to shoot is really irrelevant without a story to tell whether its narrative, doc, music vid or commercial imho. You sound young. Guys my age lamented about how EXPENSIVE
movie equipment was and how weak 16mm was versus 35mm.

the choices today are light years ahead of 16mm...the Panasonic DVX-100 still looks awesome comparatively, and some great films were shot on it.
28 Days Later coming to mind.

The Scarlett 2/3" Fixed lens is a dream camera and all the other models
coming out are mind blowing.

I hope RED continues to ignore what every other company is doing and continues to lead the path its blazing and focus on making great products
supported by unbeatable service.

 

[M Taylor]

the choices today are light years ahead of 16mm...the Panasonic DVX-100 still looks awesome comparatively, and some great films were shot on it.
28 Days Later coming to mind.

Tim,
I agree with the rest of your post, however, 28 Days Later was shot on XL1.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0289043/technical

 

[Zack Birlew]

I think the point is being missed here. This is an observation on the state of camera development as it is now. Innovation is still a big factor and could change the entire landscape as time goes on. However, looking at what others are doing on the side, such as the HDR camera, and being reminded that the next big thing is right on your heels before you even get a chance to enjoy what you've been waiting for (ie. Scarlet and Epic) just makes you think "Ah, geez, here we go again."

I don't know what my age has to do with this or my experience or that I happen to have a few minutes to make one little post on a messageboard online when nearly half of the world right now is twittering or texting useless notes hours on end. Read what I wrote, understand what I'm actually saying, and then post a reply after a few minutes of thought instead of posting rude or negative comments on pure impulse, please.

 

[NateWeaver]

You sound young.

If you spent 1/10 as much energy worrying more about what kind of stories you are going to tell...

Zac,

You are spending too much time coveting gear and not enough time learning your craft. Sitting around and talking about and pining for gear that does not exist yet is truly the most unproductive thing anybody could do. It is not conducive to good filmmaking, good tech education, or anything.

I say this in all kindness, really...go photograph something.

It just gets to the point where you wonder, "When is it going to end?"

It ends when you stop caring about useless "what ifs" and you go create something with the tools you have.

 

[jimhare]

Hey Zack,

No offense intended, by me anyway. Technology is always going to move at a million miles an hour in every direction. Nature of the beast.

What I do is get the most out of the tools I'm using, and when something comes along that makes my life more interesting or efficient, I employ it.

When the time comes, choose the tool that will make you happy, be it Red, Canon or a new player. The trick is to then close your eyes to the rest until you're ready for a new toy! :sifone:

All the best,

Jim

I think the point is being missed here.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

... some have experimented with in-post HDR video thanks to the RAW nature of the RED One's footage.

Done what? You can't post HDR video thanks to RAW. it's either HDR or it's not.* RED One isn't HDR no matter it being stored in a bayer pattern or not.

*Image synthesis/reprojection methods not withstanding.

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

Redcode, that's the difference.

Having spent a lot of time sweating over cameras that output codecs with heavy compression, and digital artifacts (you can read a thread in Cinematography about me stressing over just that right now) I can tell you that working with RAW is amazing.

The clarity and flexibility is astounding, no one else has a codec like that on a consumer cam, and it clearly separates Red from the pack, even without being the first to have a completely modular system in prototype and nearing production.

Also, you buy one of those 1080P cameras, you have a 1080P camera until you trade it in and get a new one.

Buy a Scarlet, and you have everything from a 1080P camera, to a 6K camera. You can upgrade your brain, get new functions from your camera system all the time, they are upgrading what Redcine can do all of the time, and it's astounding.

As far as everyone else? COMPETITION IS GOOD. Without competition we wouldn't have Red. We wouldn't have HD, we wouldn't have a new HVxx model coming out every year, we wouldn't have Video DSLR's, we wouldn't have a video camera in our iPod's, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Without competition we'd all be shooting on featureless 8mm camera's (if that). Because it's "good enough". Heck we probably wouldn't even have any motion cameras at all, "What's a reason you'd want to shoot motion? What can motion do that you can't do with slideshows?" they'd say.

Competition is good. New super HDR video camera? Awesome! New tool in the tool box, and a new kid on the playground to make Red stay at the top of their Dodgeball game. New High Speed camera? Great! I can do all sorts of stuff with that! Perhaps inspire Red to find a way to make their cameras run faster?

These are all just new tools, new things that will allow us all to capture images better. In the end that is what is important. What Red is doing is GREAT, but Red is working to get better, and they are doing that because everyone else is too.

Red is going to battle with all it's guns loaded (why do you think they are checking and re-checking everything before they head to production?), and so is everyone else.

When companies fight, we win, because instead of getting the same camera every year with a single kinda new feature, repackaged and resold to us, we're getting new breakneck speeds of innovation and development like we've never seen before.

When companies get into arms races like this, the artists benefit in the end, because we're all going to be getting better cameras and better technology.

Like other's have said, now is a time to celebrate.

 

[Liam Hall]

I don't know, maybe I'm just losing my taste for physical film production technology, it just seems to be getting really boring now. After seeing all of the new stuff at Siggraph this year, maybe I should just stick with 3D animation.

A lot of people have been swept away with the camera technology in recent years and have been on a headlong rush to become a DoP or Director. Many are realizing that they are better suited to another job in the industry - nothing wrong with that and if animation floats your boat then listen to that little voice in your head that's telling you to follow your passion.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

gear doesnt make a film maker a good film maker... gear doesnt make a cinematographer a good cinematographer.. who cares what gear is available.. or when it will come out.

We already have an apex camera at our disposal.

 

[David Rasberry]

the choices today are light years ahead of 16mm...

The Scarlett 2/3" Fixed lens is a dream camera and all the other models
coming out are mind blowing.

As an old 16mm shooter, I agree. Although I haven't done it much in a couple of decades, really since Betacam was introduced, I loved shooting 16mm for video.

When DV camcorders came along, for the first time I could afford to buy rather than rent decent video gear, and desktop post production tools put the power of a half million dollar online suite into the hands of individual videographers. But the image quality, as good as it was, didn't approach the 16mm telecine to online suite image quality. For the kind of industrial films I mostly did this was not much of an issue compared to small budgets. Convenience, quick turnaround and cost were more important.
But as I am sure many of you will understand, shooting conventional video, even using film techniques, is somewhat unsatisfying if you have ever shot much film.

RAW imaging cameras like the SI2k, RED, and eventually Scarlet 2/3" represent a new digital medium that truly promises to exceed both 16mm film and video in its creative capabilities and image quality. That a Scarlet can do so at such an affordable price is truly amazing.

Boring?!!! It's the most exciting time in history!

I have never had as much fun as I have had in the last year, shooting RED. It has opened doors left and right and the sense of discovery on a daily basis is amazing.

I can't wait to join the club. I haven't been this stoked about a camera I could afford as a creative tool in years, if ever.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Hi Zack,

I sympathize with you. I was hoping for a Scarlet this summer, and that didn't happen. I was hoping for a GH-1, but supply is far below demand. I settled for a Mark II, but haven't found the money for it yet. I feel like I'm very much waiting for my wallet to increase, or announced options to really become available.

The meantime, however, is anything but boring. There are scripts and shotlists to be written, places to scout, and brainstorming to be done. And when all else fails, there is a lot of inspiration to watch and read. Others have said the same, and I agree.

So, once Sony, Canon, JVC, Panasonic, and their neighbors reach the 2K+ ballgame, what's to separate their solutions from RED's?

I feel like people overlook a lot when comparing cameras like this, especially to the RED lineup. I know people on other forums envisioned the GH-1 as the saving grace, and read several comments to the effect that with Panasonic's offering, there was no need for RED or a Mark II. Obviously, that's not true.

RED will offer a complete suite including a number of things the major manufacturers offer, but a total package that none are close to providing at a lower pricepoint.

Really good encoding (aka REDCODE). Low noise, low Jello, low skew, high dynamic range. Pan all you want, as fast as you want.

Compact Flash. Storage to buy off a shelf in your local store, or on location if need be.

True framerate adjustments. If you want to shoot 100fps, you can. If you want to shoot 24p, you can. If you want to shoot 29.8, you can. No pulldowns, tricks, or loopholes. What you see is what you get.

Modularity. You are right. Technology continues to evolve. In fact, you can bet that as you purchase the newest latest and greatest, there are a team of engineers at a competing company working 45 hours a week to figure out how to make something newer, later, and greater. RED offers the only real solution. Instead of buying a whole new camera, just upgrade the parts you need to.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I somewhat agree with the comment about all the "me too" cams out there. It seems there are 50 camera models separated by 1 feature each and about $5k one way or the other. It's mind-boggling.

However, until they start shooting raw, I think there is still some separation here.

 

[Robert Jackson]

Tim,
I agree with the rest of your post, however, 28 Days Later was shot on XL1.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0289043/technical

And while Danny Boyle's concept for using a ratty video look was interesting, there's no comparison to 16mm. If overall image quality had been the goal there's no way I'd have ever opted for Mini-DV over 16mm. 3K may be another story.

 

[Rick Presas]

Redcode, that's the difference.

Having spent a lot of time sweating over cameras that output codecs with heavy compression, and digital artifacts (you can read a thread in Cinematography about me stressing over just that right now) I can tell you that working with RAW is amazing.

The clarity and flexibility is astounding, no one else has a codec like that on a consumer cam, and it clearly separates Red from the pack, even without being the first to have a completely modular system in prototype and nearing production.

Also, you buy one of those 1080P cameras, you have a 1080P camera until you trade it in and get a new one.

Buy a Scarlet, and you have everything from a 1080P camera, to a 6K camera. You can upgrade your brain, get new functions from your camera system all the time, they are upgrading what Redcine can do all of the time, and it's astounding.

As far as everyone else? COMPETITION IS GOOD. Without competition we wouldn't have Red. We wouldn't have HD, we wouldn't have a new HVxx model coming out every year, we wouldn't have Video DSLR's, we wouldn't have a video camera in our iPod's, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Without competition we'd all be shooting on featureless 8mm camera's (if that). Because it's "good enough". Heck we probably wouldn't even have any motion cameras at all, "What's a reason you'd want to shoot motion? What can motion do that you can't do with slideshows?" they'd say.

Competition is good. New super HDR video camera? Awesome! New tool in the tool box, and a new kid on the playground to make Red stay at the top of their Dodgeball game. New High Speed camera? Great! I can do all sorts of stuff with that! Perhaps inspire Red to find a way to make their cameras run faster?

These are all just new tools, new things that will allow us all to capture images better. In the end that is what is important. What Red is doing is GREAT, but Red is working to get better, and they are doing that because everyone else is too.

Red is going to battle with all it's guns loaded (why do you think they are checking and re-checking everything before they head to production?), and so is everyone else.

When companies fight, we win, because instead of getting the same camera every year with a single kinda new feature, repackaged and resold to us, we're getting new breakneck speeds of innovation and development like we've never seen before.

When companies get into arms races like this, the artists benefit in the end, because we're all going to be getting better cameras and better technology.

Like other's have said, now is a time to celebrate.

A agree with this 100%

We are LUCKY! We get to be on the front lines of the REDvolution!

Think about it, Video has existed for decades! the idea that you could make a feature length film at the quality and price point that we are going to be able to make it was UNHEARD OF. It was the stuff DREAMS were made of.

And we get to be the first to have that p[iece of filmmaking history in our hands, WHATEVER format or camera you're using.

Filmmaking used to be a rich mans hobby, now it TRULY is for everyone. People that before would NEVER have had a way to adequately express their art can now do so.

Wether its with an $800 DSLR that shoots HD video, or an DVX/HVX that has one of the most gorgeous 24p frame rates on the market, or a SCARLET, that will not just BLUR the line bwteen professional and consuer, but totally erase it from existence, we get CHOICES that we can actually AFFORD.

 

[DCC Erickson]

Are you a filmmaker or a gear head? The audience doesn't know what camera you're using, and more to the point - they don't care. You can bore a room full of people at 4K and fascinate them on VHS.