How will workflow go from Red to Avid HD?

[Mike Devlin]

Hi Mike...

The license is very restrictive. Take a look at it yourself... it's publicly available on the Avid website. A corporate entity that wants to use the DNxHD codec must work with Avid corporate to "do a deal." The public license only covers individual users.

Lucas
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Reader of the Fine Print
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

Hi Lucas,

I did not read the fine print (which is not all the fine, as you point out). Several posts by the moderator on one of the Avid forums lead me to believe that Avid and Red were already working together on this, but that does not imply any particular solution. As a user of Avid Media Composer for off line it seems very clear that the best solution (image quality, ease of use, storage space, etc) would be if REDCINE could output DNxHD. I am sure RED and Avid know that. I don't expect that to be available on day one, but our first RED camera is #612 so I am hoping that is available by then, but I am a known optimist.

 

[GlennChan]

What about integration with some sort of virtual/data VTR or a DDR system? If you could have a device/system that converts Red footage to HD-SDI + SD SDI, you'd instantly be able to slide into existing workflows. If you can send the footage over SDI, any Avid will be able to ingest that (and add compression if need be). For online, being able to send material over SDI would make things fairly easy.

 

[Mike Devlin]

What about integration with some sort of virtual/data VTR or a DDR system? If you could have a device/system that converts Red footage to HD-SDI + SD SDI, you'd instantly be able to slide into existing workflows. If you can send the footage over SDI, any Avid will be able to ingest that (and add compression if need be). For online, being able to send material over SDI would make things fairly easy.

I believe you are correct Glenn. Stuart has previously indicated that REDCINE can output uncompressed HD 4:2:2. The RED website workflow page says the same thing. What is unclear to me, since this is not a file type but rather a video stream, is how this happens. REDCINE => AJA => Media Composer Adrenaline? If REDCINE can generate HD SDI 4:2:2 with some hardware configuration then of course integration with Avid is fairly easy and follows the traditional Tape-type workflow where we now ingest from REDCINE instead of a deck. However, it would still be much nicer to get DNxHD directly from REDCINE in an IT type workflow and aviod ingesting a video stream. I am confident that RED and Avid will work this out over the next year.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

... From my POV, I have 3 Avid's with the highest level being MC Adrenaline with the HD board. So it has an output limitation...sure it can handle HD resolution but not an on line level. So my question is, we use either FCP or Avid to lock picture, then where will we go, and what will be the most cost effective way to do color timing? I see Luki is repping Scratch, so perhaps there is one answer. Perhaps with most FCP users there may be word about Final Touch being integrated...hard to say but what I do know is that I will need a new system that is both affordable and can handle at the very least 2K output. So far an FCP system with Aja or Blackmagic appears to be the answer. Anyone else?

Torrie - I can't speak for Apple, but SCRATCH will natively support REDCODE RAW.

So one option for online and color timing would be to go from your offline system of choice to SCRATCH - which will be able to access the REDCODE RAW files and grade from there. SCRATCH can also output to any SMPTE format in realtime with burnin, pan/scan and a grade, so you can go from REDCODE RAW to NTSC/PAL with burn-in for editorial dailies, or output to HD-SDI or HD-RGB for a "final" online format, if that's your choice.

Lucas Wilson
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Thanks Luki -knowledge is power, and finding out these bits of info help the process particularly in workflow.

 

[Sean]

Given that many Red users are indie filmmakers, and therefore won't have Avid Symphony systems in their house, I was disappointed to discover that Avid Xpress can't import 1080p/24p HD (unless first ingested by another "higher end" Avid system like Avid Media Composer Adrenaline). I so want to stick with Avid, but they really just don't make it easy for us do they.

 

[GlennChan]

I believe you are correct Glenn. Stuart has previously indicated that REDCINE can output uncompressed HD 4:2:2. The RED website workflow page says the same thing.

I could definitely be wrong here, but I think Redcode might only be doing 4:4:4 RGB. The rationale for this is that 4:2:2 Y'CbCr chroma subsampling damages the picture (which is true; not visually lossless on small text). 4:4:4 is definitely the way to go for nice keying and good quality. 4k RAW is likely even better for keying, although for workflow reasons (i.e. TV shows shot completely greenscreen; lots of kids shows do this) it might be desirable to do dual link HD for ingest (less pixels = faster render, dual link HD works with most systems).

On the other hand, it may be unlikely that 4:4:4 quality is maintained. Distribution will likely stay 4:2:2 or lower for a while. As a counterpoint, having 4:4:4 is not bad as long as its overhead isn't too much (i.e. real-time conversion to 4:2:2, about the same compression efficiency).

2- I might be wrong here again, but I don't believe Redcine will support hardware SDI out??? (and deck control, etc. etc.)

3- For ingest into a Symphony (or Nitris), SDI ingest would let you skip/avoid DNxHD compression. What's not ideal about DNxHD is that it does 4:2:2 poorly (lots of aliasing) and it applies DCT compression (which adds noise).

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Given that many Red users are indie filmmakers, and therefore won't have Avid Symphony systems in their house, I was disappointed to discover that Avid Xpress can't import 1080p/24p HD (unless first ingested by another "higher end" Avid system like Avid Media Composer Adrenaline). I so want to stick with Avid, but they really just don't make it easy for us do they.

Ummm have you upgraded to Xpress Pro 5.2? I'm relatively certain it supports importing 1080 24p DNxHD.

 

[Mike Devlin]

Given that many Red users are indie filmmakers, and therefore won't have Avid Symphony systems in their house, I was disappointed to discover that Avid Xpress can't import 1080p/24p HD (unless first ingested by another "higher end" Avid system like Avid Media Composer Adrenaline). I so want to stick with Avid, but they really just don't make it easy for us do they.

I am not sure about Avid Xpress, but you certainly don't need to go up to Symphony to get 1080P/24. Avid Media Composer is very inexpensive these days (list $4K and you can do much better) and it has an enormous amount of power, especially since they moved 16 bit SpectraMatte and motion tracking (including stabilization and smoothing) and many other features from Symphony down into Media Composer (including some of the grading features).

 

[Sean]

I was basing my statement on Avid's tech specs on their website:

"Here are just some of the features added to the Mac version of Avid Xpress Pro 5.6.

* Avid DNxHD encoding and editing
* Native HDV: 1080i/59.94, 1080i/50, 720p/29.97
* Native DVCPRO HD: 1080i/59.94, 1080i/50, 720p/60, 720p/24
* Panasonic P2 support
* 720p/23.976 and 1080p/24 HD project types. (Footage of these formats may be captured in other Avid systems such as Avid Media Composer Adrenaline and edited in Avid Xpress Pro.)"

Now, maybe that 1080p/24 HD limitation is only applicable to the Mac version? It's not clear from the website.

As for Media Composer at around $4K...seems a lot pricier than FCP. Hey, I'm an Avid guy. I do not want to switch over...if I don't have to.

EDIT: and the tech specs do say the limitation is in "capturing footage." In a non-tape file-based workflow, perhaps that's not an issue either.