How to get "film look" on Epic for cinema?

[Aaron michaels]

Well I've worked with Mike bay on all of the transformers from film to digital to grading and with Steven .S Indiana Jones, also the book of ELI

 

[Bob Gundu]

Well I've worked with Mike bay on all of the transformers from film to digital to grading and with Steven .S Indiana Jones, also the book of ELI

Wow. I'd love to check out your work Aaron.

 

[M Most]

Well I've worked with Mike bay on all of the transformers from film to digital to grading and with Steven .S Indiana Jones, also the book of ELI

Even Stefan would say that his look creation techniques yield much better results when the basic look is done in production (he's told me that, and many others as well). And as a colorist myself I heartily agree.

Nobody here is saying that grading is not important, or that it does not add value and creativity. Of course it does. But images are always best when you're enhancing what's already there, not when you're turning it into something it's not.

 

[Aaron michaels]

Well myself Even and Sean McNamara Talk all the time and that way of thinking has never crossed our minds, not even on the rotten tomatos project. Thee ideal of that...I dare you, don't destroy our ideas with talk of rateetoo.

 

[Aaron michaels]

just joking fellas I don't know these people, I make my own films.=)

 

[Aaron michaels]

I went to youtube and saw the trailers for 2016, I have to say everything looked dull and flat with a touch of Orange in the grading. i call it the Red look.

 

[Marc Wielage]

That argument is only partially relevant and does not apply in a lot of situations. Like a landscape shot of a mountain!
There is nature cinematographers that only work with existing light, no actors, no art department, no costume. There works looks stunningly cinematic and impressive.

They still have to pick the lens, set the exposure, and compose the shot. The camera does none of that. I once congratulated a DP on a beautiful car commercial I worked on, and he laughed and kind of shrugged and said, "it was all lit by god. This was just a case of picking the right kind of day, the right location, and putting the camera in the right place, then waiting for the light." But it was still the DP's judgement that created the shot. I would bet you could take five amateurs who would not be able to get a shot that looked that good in the same place with the same camera. The color correction on that particular spot probably didn't add more than 20% to what was already there.

Even Stefan would say that his look creation techniques yield much better results when the basic look is done in production (he's told me that, and many others as well). And as a colorist myself I heartily agree. Nobody here is saying that grading is not important, or that it does not add value and creativity. Of course it does. But images are always best when you're enhancing what's already there, not when you're turning it into something it's not.

Exactly. Very well-said, Mike.

 

[jake blackstone]

Bollocks. What is this "proper image" you speak of? A "proper image" is whatever looks good and you don't need a ISO standardized rec709 curve to achieve that. In fact 99.9% of REDUsers are working in sRGB which is a totally different curve from rec709. So if they grade on an sRGB computer monitor they *shouldn't* be using a rec709 LUT. It's doubly nonsense because RG4 *is* an "arbitrary contrast" curve. It's just a random curve that RED thought would look good. It's no more "correct" or wrong than any other.

Bollocks you say?
"In fact 99.9% of REDUsers are working in sRGB"
Is that a fact? Personally, I'd give a bit more credit to the majority of users and suggest, that they do use proper monitoring with Blackmagic or AJA video cards, resulting in Rec-709 image and not simply using on-screen GUI, as you suggest.
RG4 is Red's attempt to convert a linear sensor image into a proper, yes proper, Rec-709 image, just like RLF is an attempt to create a proper Cineon image. I see, you have a healthy disdain for a system of standards, that actually attempts to prevent this whole process from turning into a free for all. Yes, if you're the only one working with the particular image, then you may say "A "proper image" is whatever looks good". Unfortunately, this idea falls immediately apart, when many people from different departments start working with the same image and they need to have a proper starting point and a proper viewing environment, resulting in consistent workflow with everyone involved.

You know what you *shouldn't* be doing? Applying a contrast curve on top of another contrast curve. You can start to get odd blending issues where the two curves conflict and then you get either banding or else solarization. Starting from RLF is the most neutral curve you can start from. In fact the RG4 curve is relative to RLF as a starting point.

We do that all the time. RLF image is a Cineon curve added to a linear light RAW image from the sensor and so is the RedGamma. Based on your theory, you should use contrast curve ONLY once and ONLY when working with linear light images, like in case of working with ACES, because that is the only instance, where you would apply curve only once without adding it to another...

 

[jussi rovanpera]

But is Gavin writing about s-type contrast curves? There's definitely issues stacking those, compared to using "simple" 3 point curves like LGG under a s-curve.

 

[jake blackstone]

But is Gavin writing about s-type contrast curves? There's definitely issues stacking those, compared to using "simple" 3 point curves like LGG under a s-curve.

What kind of issues do you have and why do you need to have multiple instances of s-curve in a grade?
Besides, my original point was advising against using a contrast or a curve control instead of applying a proper LUT used for grading RLF images, so there would be no need to have multiple curve instances and instead to just rely on a LUT to create a proper Rec-709 or P3 image.
Keep in mind, there are other controls in Resolve, that are much more dangerous and destructive, than applying s-curves, like the midtone level control in LOG. Sadly, it is too easily prone to inverting the midtones, when applied too aggressively, resulting in distortion and solarization. I'd worry more about that...