How to defend RED

[Steve Sanacore]

I am so sick of hearing ACs complain or put down the RED ONE because of their experiences with them on probably their first shoot with them.

If I hear it first hand I can usually discuss it a bit and straighten them out by touting all the virtues of the camera and why they may have had problems and that there is really no substitute other than 35mm film or way more money and lower res. with the Genesis or Arri D21.

I am sure most of the time it's from the lack of an experienced RED DT on set. But every time a crew rents one out and has problems, it's a black eye for us all who will try and make a living with this camera. Maybe some of the rental houses out there are just not qualified to be supporting this system yet? Bad for them and us.

It's very frustrating and I would love an opinion from this forum on just how reliable or unreliable the RED is?

When I get my camera, (hopefully soon), I can show them how great it is, but until then, what can I say?

I am not negative about the RED at all, just frustrated!

Thanks for listening.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Steve,

First do this... Check out this partial list of what's been shot. Then you can easily multiply this by 50 as commercials and music videos are not listed.

http://www.imdb.com/SearchTechnical?RED One

Your ACs are putting down the RED for whatever reason.. Who cares... Good ACs like a challenge.. They say "Don't care what what you put in front of me, I'll make it sing... It's what I do."

RED is growing... Fast. Here's what I tell people, and it usually quiets the room pretty quick:

"RED is like the weather. You can like it or not, but either way, it's coming.. So if I were you... I'd get ready."

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

i hear ya...

i hear ya...

I hear ya Steve.

I have encountered a whole lot of resistance on many levels - beyond AC's to insurance companies being worried about the production wanting to use "experimental technology" on a "professional" shoot.

One big part of the problem is that there are many people who have little experience and a lot of enthusiasm that throw their half tested camera on to a shoot with Beta software and little knowledge of how to manage data. This is when things go wrong..."I had codec errors all day - this camera sucks!".

Those of us that take a more measured approach are being burned by the yahoos. People are reluctant to use the camera because of all of the nightmares they have heard about - mostly avoidable nightmares.

Add to that, the reluctance for the editorial side to climb on board to a new workflow - it just ain't easy.

You need to preach to the people that are interested in high quality image making with out the usual cost associated with it. I have been lucky enough to work with directors who would fight for the camera. DP's only have so much pull!

You also need to test the hell out of your camera and scour these forums so that you don't get caught by a "known" issue that is easily solved.

I have a top notch AC (crewpix!) who knows the camera inside out. We tested for months before putting the camera on a professional shoot. Even then we had a backup camera with us.

I have used it on three commercial jobs in the last month. No problems.

...and yes, I am still on build 15.

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Steve,

First do this... Check out this partial list of what's been shot. Then you can easily multiply this by 50 as commercials and music videos are not listed.

http://www.imdb.com/SearchTechnical?RED One

Your ACs are putting down the RED for whatever reason.. Who cares... Good ACs like a challenge.. They say "Don't care what what you put in front of me, I'll make it sing... It's what I do."

RED is growing... Fast. Here's what I tell people, and it usually quiets the room pretty quick:

"RED is like the weather. You can like it or not, but either way, it's coming.. So if I were you... I'd get ready."

Love that quote Jay!

I heard of a DP calling RED a "REDACHE". I told him he better take a couple of aspirin because RED is here to stay!

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

 

[Steve Sanacore]

Steve,

First do this... Check out this partial list of what's been shot. Then you can easily multiply this by 50 as commercials and music videos are not listed.

http://www.imdb.com/SearchTechnical?RED One

Your ACs are putting down the RED for whatever reason.. Who cares... Good ACs like a challenge.. They say "Don't care what what you put in front of me, I'll make it sing... It's what I do."

RED is growing... Fast. Here's what I tell people, and it usually quiets the room pretty quick:

"RED is like the weather. You can like it or not, but either way, it's coming.. So if I were you... I'd get ready."

Great link, thanks! It will make good ammo to counter the flack!

Can't wait to get my camera as I have a bunch of stock I want to shoot which will give the camera a good workout before I commit to any commercial shoots.

 

[Ed Watkins]

I don't defend my RED, it defends me. It's that hardcore. :gun:

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Be a man! Punch them in the face! :biggrin:

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Let's put a "Red come back line" thread up!

"The camera won't be the only red thing on that set if I hear ya once more!"...

:biggrin:

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Very, very rarely in my career have I had to deal with negative comments from a crew member, but the solution is very simple: a negative crew member quickly becomes a former crew member.

We just had a visit from a couple of very talented guys from a very good agency; they walked in quite skeptical and said that they had heard that, "the Red camera makes nice pictures but it's hell to post."

Their "information" had come from some large post houses in the Northeast. We showed them the camera on a table top, and moved them right through RedCine and a cut in FCS.

No problems of any kind, of course, and they came away believers in the Red workflow.

I also showed them a 24x36 print and they were mightily impressed by the still frame quality.

My experience with Red has been positive; zero camera problems on paid shoots and seamless workflow.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[RED RAPH]

Even in Brazil

Even in Brazil

Guys, Brazil is definetely more strict and conservative film influence. Old school DPs and ACs...

Can't stop the revolution. Once I loaded up the shots on set and opened the RED CINE and they could one light correct for check up...funny how they smirked.

But they went right back to say they miss the motor noise of a 35mm camera. I told them I prefer hums...

Heads up mate.

Cheers!

RAPH RED REBEL (# 663 and # 1427)

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

As a producer and director, I call the shots on my shoots. And my main concern is cost, ease and flow. I think once you make a point about the couple of cuts in the budget list, those 2 lines named "filmstock" and "lab" (add to that the dailies assle and telecine of the rushes), once these fellows see the rows of zerozzz vanish from the sheet, they'll be the ones to kick ass on the set. Time will be necessary, but eventually, all sets will silence.... Camerawise, and crewise...

 

[Stephen Williams]

As a producer and director, I call the shots on my shoots. And my main concern is cost, ease and flow. I think once you make a point about the couple of cuts in the budget list, those 2 lines named "filmstock" and "lab" (add to that the dailies assle and telecine of the rushes), once these fellows see the rows of zerozzz vanish from the sheet, they'll be the ones to kick ass on the set. Time will be necessary, but eventually, all sets will silence.... Camerawise, and crewise...

Hi,

Saving on Filmstock & Lab is nothing new, video cameras have been around for a long time. News was shot on film before betacam!

Stephen

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Saving on Filmstock & Lab is nothing new, video cameras have been around for a long time. News was shot on film before betacam!

?
:huh:

Thanks, I just got out my cave and didn't know the war was over...

Do you have a wiki link on that?

(smileys smileys smileys...)

 

[Denis Buhot]

No problems of any kind, of course, and they came away believers in the Red workflow.

I also showed them a 24x36 print and they were mightily impressed by the still frame quality.

My experience with Red has been positive; zero camera problems on paid shoots and seamless workflow.

Leo

I LOVE that one !! (especially because my number has just shown up)... No camera is flawless, but Red one is Red one, and red believers so enthusiastic about it they just forget the flaws it had, has, may have, must have... not to speak of evil trees... :tongue: Time for a sleep mode, though !:umm:

 

[Kevin Lang]

Steve,

First do this... Check out this partial list of what's been shot. Then you can easily multiply this by 50 as commercials and music videos are not listed.

http://www.imdb.com/SearchTechnical?RED One

Your ACs are putting down the RED for whatever reason.. Who cares... Good ACs like a challenge.. They say "Don't care what what you put in front of me, I'll make it sing... It's what I do."

RED is growing... Fast. Here's what I tell people, and it usually quiets the room pretty quick:

"RED is like the weather. You can like it or not, but either way, it's coming.. So if I were you... I'd get ready."

I too love the quote, however I would edit that list from IMDB as half of the credits are from pre red i.e. "1973 Young and Restless".

 

[Stephen Williams]

?
:huh:

Thanks, I just got out my cave and didn't know the war was over...

Do you have a wiki link on that?

(smileys smileys smileys...)

Hi,

Then I don't understand your post.

Stephen

 

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

The AC's just feel frustrated because its a new tool. One should work in instructing them of the pros/cons of the camera and they will get used to it. Its not perfect, but it is great. They will learn to love it, they just dont know how yet.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Hi,

Then I don't understand your post.

Stephen

I meant "one way to defend red" (cf: the post title) is to underline the budget difference shooting with Red makes (lots of savings on the stock+lab expenses). Convincing producers on the questions of money is one good step to make Red more "job friendly" on a pro gig... Producers respond to money questions, especially if they are significant...
:wink:

 

[Leo Ticheli]

The AC's just feel frustrated because its a new tool. One should work in instructing them of the pros/cons of the camera and they will get used to it. Its not perfect, but it is great. They will learn to love it, they just dont know how yet.

For an AC, what's to know about Red that they don't already know?

Lenses; identical. Follow-focus; identical. Matte-box & filters; identical. Baseplate, rods, and the like; identical.

As far as an AC is concerned, I can see absolutely no difference in operating a Red and any 35MM film camera, except, of course, the glaringly obvious elimination of the film magazine.

If you're talking about menu functions, then yes, some rudimentary education is required to do the basics of frame-rates and the like, but anyone too stupid to master that in short order is too stupid to be an AC. Personally, I don't leave these tasks to the AC; it's Camera Operator territory for me, but perhaps that's just my way of working.

I believe the Red is the best thing to happen to the AC world in some time. I can pretty much get by without an AC shooting with my VariCam; depth of field is so much deeper I can pull focus for myself in most cases. Not so with Red; an AC is essential in all but the most static of scenes.

Red equals a lot more work for Camera Assistants as it shoots jobs formerly shot by VariCams and Sony 900s.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Joseph Mastantuono]

I meant "one way to defend red" (cf: the post title) is to underline the budget difference shooting with Red makes (lots of savings on the stock+lab expenses). Convincing producers on the questions of money is one good step to make Red more "job friendly" on a pro gig... Producers respond to money questions, especially if they are significant...
:wink:

The line item that gets forgotten though, is the extra technical help that will be useful on the set and with the post workflow. I end up fielding way too many calls from AC's & AE's that start with...

"I'm shooting/editing with red, and we don't have a red guy, and..."

Great... When you had film you hired a Lab to handle your negatives. When you had tapes you hired an Asst. Editor to make dupes and handle ingesting. When you have data wouldn't it behoove you to make a few calls *before* you shoot?

That's my rant. And pretty much every AC I've worked with has pretty much been on-the-ball with this stuff, and likes the red a hell of a lot better than working with HD cameras.