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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How much horsepower needed to edit 4k?

Since RedCine uses the GPU to do some of it's processing, I would think the graphics card in an iMac may not be up to the job.

Nick
 
Nick Shaw said:
Since RedCine uses the GPU to do some of it's processing, I would think the graphics card in an iMac may not be up to the job.

Nick
Click to expand...

LOL!

I guess that means my MacMini is out for an editing system. :D

Seriously, I think that for editing 2K or 4K a current quad-core Mac or PC can pull it off just fine. The real big issue is having a drive array that can sustain at least two streams of whatever format you're working in. And this can be alleviated somewhat by proxy editing and keeping full-res footage offline for much of the process. I currently do all my editing at 1920x1080p and typically 24fps. That's my target for all my animation rendering right now, but I'll bump that to full 2K or even to 4K once I get my hands on RED. ...I'll have to buy more render nodes to handle 4K -- this RED thing sure is getting expensive. I'm using G5 quads right now as well as various dual core and a couple quad-core PC systems in my workflow now. I plan to buy a couple new Mac Pro systems this spring and I'm hoping the 8-core units with the upcoming Stoakley chipset are ready when I am. I'll be building one, maybe two 8-core PC systems once Stoakley is shipping. I plan to keep the G5 quads in my workflow, but will demote my current dual and quad-core PC systems to render farm duty.

And I realize this post was probably not that helpful... I guess we'll know more in the coming weeks/months about requirements for RedCine and editing what we shoot with RED. But I wouldn't cross that new 8-core Mac or PC with 12GB RAM and 4x750GB RAID off your shopping list just yet.

I'm expecting 8-core Macs to be announced anytime between MWSF in a few more days and no later than NAB. Availability should be NAB or shortly after if Apple waits for Stoakley, which they may very well do.
 
I guess if RedCine uses the GPU, we should also plan for buying a decent video card. ...I would anyway since I need it for my graphics work as it is. I just wish Apple would get off their lazy rear end and start offering some decent video options. For systems geared toward the creative / graphics professional, the X1900XT is a little weak and the FX4500 is outdated and overpriced.
 
my guess is an imac is going to be crying if you try running 4k footage on it, the other way is just capture photo jpeg, edit on that, it sucks, then let it export with the 4k footage from the timecodes. it might take mannnyyy hours, but whatever, go catch up on that dvd box set of the gong show you've got.
 
AppliedVisual said:
I guess if RedCine uses the GPU, we should also plan for buying a decent video card. ...I would anyway since I need it for my graphics work as it is. I just wish Apple would get off their lazy rear end and start offering some decent video options. For systems geared toward the creative / graphics professional, the X1900XT is a little weak and the FX4500 is outdated and overpriced.
Click to expand...

Of course, it's very unlikely those will still be the options by the time Red is released.

Seriously, anyone who's buying a computer specifically to edit Red footage should wait as long as possible; you'll end up getting more for your money.
 
How multiprocessor multithread savvy is Redcine? Will it scale well with more processors, hyperthreading etc?
 
NOMADIC said:
my guess is an imac is going to be crying if you try running 4k footage on it, the other way is just capture photo jpeg, edit on that, it sucks, then let it export with the 4k footage from the timecodes. it might take mannnyyy hours, but whatever, go catch up on that dvd box set of the gong show you've got.
Click to expand...

I know you are kidding. I can't run a half resolution 1080 (540x960) video podcast on my Mac Mini at home. The guy at the Apple store told me you can't run FCP on a Mac Book because of the lack of dedicated video ram (shared memory) so I bought a MacBook Pro. So that might give you an idea of scale. I have an iBook and had a hard time opening RAW files from my Canon 20D in iPhoto, took a long time.
 
My sentiments are echoed throughout this thread regarding the GPU.

The GPU's role in modern computing is becoming very central. More and more we see clever programmers (like Mr.Natress) harnessing the power of hardwired gpu functions, to which I believe the role of the Central Processing Unit as we know it will completely change in the not too distant future. Forget clockspeeds.. forget cores. We've seen IBM's cell processor do things on the playstation 3 that would make a conventional CPU look like a pocket calculator. To get a general Idea, PS3's cell produces 16 TRILLION calculations per second, a PC or Mac does a few billion. Now if you could have that inside your editing suite, it would be, well.. sweet.

So.. going off on a tangent, what was my point... Ah..yes..

The future of computing is EXCITING. In a couple of years, be prepared to forget the notion of cores and clock speed.

For now, a good video card would be a very good idea. On most good PC motherboards, you have a Dual-SLI slot, which allows you to bridge two video cards so that they function as a single unit. This also can bring about massive performance gains in my opinion (Someone correct me if this is not the case).
 
I wish that Mac OS X with Leopard release finally would get driver(s) to run the NVIDIA Quadro® Plex 1000 visual computing system (VCS).

512MB - 1GB Frame Buffer per GPU
Uncompressed 8-, 10-, or 12-Bit SDI Output
2K 2048x1080i from 23.976 Hz to 60.00 Hz (SMPTE372)
http://www.nvidia.com/page/quadroplex.html
 
ericyoung said:
How multiprocessor multithread savvy is Redcine? Will it scale well with more processors, hyperthreading etc?
Click to expand...

Both the codec & REDCINE are fully multi-processor/core aware and utilize it as best as they can. Hyperthreading is sort of a relic from the past and I don't expect it to give much benefit with stuff like this. You will definitely want a multi-processor/core machine (more specific numbers will be available later).
 
acehole said:
Forget clockspeeds.. forget cores. We've seen IBM's cell processor do things on the playstation 3 that would make a conventional CPU look like a pocket calculator. To get a general Idea, PS3's cell produces 16 TRILLION calculations per second, a PC or Mac does a few billion. Now if you could have that inside your editing suite, it would be, well.. sweet.
Click to expand...

Whoa, there... lay off the Sony kool-aid. I've personally worked with Cell and I'm working with it right now on an embedded control systems project. I knnow what it can and can't do. Cell is a very nice CPU, but in reality it's just a PowerPC 907 series that has all the legacy junk stripped off so it's not backwards compatible with anything. It's trimmed and lean and mean and has some nice abilities like running individual cores at arbitrary speeds. More cores (like 3, 7 and 9 core variants of Cell) are easily created on the CPU die because it's trimmed down and with their current 65nm process, they can fit more of these smaller CPU cores on a single chip. Intel won't hit unified quad-core and 8, 12 and 16 core CPUs until they transition x86 to 45nm later this year.

As for what PS3 can do, the true power of PS3 is not the Cell processor. We heard all this same type of crap the last time around with PS2 and the EmotionEngine CPU - (hybrid MIPS R5400). You can chalk up the Trillions of operations per second claim with the PS3/Cell right along with the "it's illegal to export PSX and PS2 to the middle east because they're classified as supercomputers" rumor. Sony is making the trillions of operations per second claim based on the number of cores * number of possible pipeline steps * MHz. It's a bogus claim, but there is no industry standard that specifically declares what an "operation" is. Perhaps I've spent too much time in game development and I'm glad I don't do it anymore, but we have to look at the hardware for what it is... In the PS3's case, it is first and foremost a game system. It is designed to play games and it does that rather well -- although the current crop of games are junk. If Cell were half as revolutionary as the Sony hype juggernaut makes it out to be, then people would be tossing x86, Itanium/EPIC and just about every other major CPU architecture in the trash in favor of Cell.

The real power of the PS3 is the nVidia GPU, which has been tweaked to work in tandem with Cell, the onboard memory architecture and common HD video resolutions. Additionally, game developers can specifically optimize code for the PS3 platform and it allows them more freedom to create visually impressive games than it does with current PC hardware due to no need for maintaining compatibility with countless hardware configurations. 6 months from now, PC games will look far better than PS3 games - just as what happened with the PC vs. PS2 and XBOX. IMO, there's a few PC games right now that are on par with what PS3 is showing.

And let's not forget all those revolutionary Cell-based products and turn-key systems that Sony has been bragging about for the last three years. None of which have come to market, let alone have even been demonstrated with any amount of reassurance that they will come to market. Remember, we're talking about the same Sony that was busted at CES in '99 for hyping up PS2 and EmotionEngine by showing a demo of a real-time rendered ball covered with over 2 million interactive hair fibers. ...When I say they got busted, they had to fess up and admit to the demo running on an SGI Onyx2 with dual RealityEngine graphics pipes and 4xR10K 200MHz CPUs (think $80K computer at the time) was tucked under a table behind the booth. And then they had the brass cajones to claim it was representative of what the EE/PS2 could do when released. Even though the EE was nothing more than an R5400 CPU with partially integrated nVidia graphics chip.

OK, I'm off my Sony rant... Sorry everybody. But their CE division and PlayStation / Media marketing has no shame.
 
Rob Lohman said:
Both the codec & REDCINE are fully multi-processor/core aware and utilize it as best as they can. Hyperthreading is sort of a relic from the past and I don't expect it to give much benefit with stuff like this. You will definitely want a multi-processor/core machine (more specific numbers will be available later).
Click to expand...

By fully multi-processor/core aware, can you confirm that it will scale to 8 CPU cores or beyond to 12 or 16? I'm not trying to be too skeptical or put you guys on the spot, but I deal with "multithreaded" software on a daily basis and see these claims every day. Yet, very few applications can do what they claim and I'm tired of dealing with "fully multithreaded" software that does OK with 2 cores, barely does any better with 4 and crashes into a flaming pile of bits when given 8 CPUs to work with.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that because I have high hopes for RedCine and the software/tools you guys are creating. I've done my fair share of multithreaded software development and I know it's not an easy task. Please don't let us down! Because, sadly, most other software developers are really struggling with this one and have for some time. eg: MentalRay = good multithreaded implementation, but only scales to 8 CPUs per node. Lightwave|3D = bad multithreaded implementation - up to 16 threads, but poor scheduling some core components not even multithreaded.
 
The Third Man said:
I wish that Mac OS X with Leopard release finally would get driver(s) to run the NVIDIA Quadro® Plex 1000 visual computing system (VCS).
Click to expand...

Hopefully! Although the QuadroPlex is a bit on the expensive side. I like it though -- it's a total flashback to the SGI days with the external RE2 rackmount graphics pipes. :D

Although, without the Mac having at least dual PCI x16 interfaces (hopefully the new Mac Pro w/8 cores will hae this), the Quadro Plex would be a bit limited on bandwidth to/from the system.

I just hope Apple updates their graphics offerings by NAB to at least have Quadro 5500 and hopefully some good mid range offerings like the GeForce 8800/8900 series. Dual interfaces / SLI is a must, IMO and I'm still shocked that the Mac Pro didn't ship with two linked x16 slots.
 
AppliedVisual said:
Hopefully! Although the QuadroPlex is a bit on the expensive side. I like it though -- it's a total flashback to the SGI days with the external RE2 rackmount graphics pipes. :D

Although, without the Mac having at least dual PCI x16 interfaces (hopefully the new Mac Pro w/8 cores will hae this), the Quadro Plex would be a bit limited on bandwidth to/from the system.

I just hope Apple updates their graphics offerings by NAB to at least have Quadro 5500 and hopefully some good mid range offerings like the GeForce 8800/8900 series. Dual interfaces / SLI is a must, IMO and I'm still shocked that the Mac Pro didn't ship with two linked x16 slots.
Click to expand...

Only we can wait for Tuesday MWSF Apple hardware announcements in a keynote speech from Steve Jobs and til than read what the Mac rumor site wrote:
"- Standard graphics bumped to nVIDIA 7600GT; high end options include ATi X1950 XT, nVIDIA QuadroFX 4500, and a new high-end professional card from ATi as yet unnamed.
- SLI and CrossFire supported cards will also be included, presuming both technologies are actually supported. A build to order SLI configuration based around the nVIDIA 7950 GX2 has been previewed to Apple partners but it is not known exactly what cards will be offered in the final product."
http://www.macosrumors.com/20061218-1A.html
 
AppliedVisual said:
By fully multi-processor/core aware, can you confirm that it will scale to 8 CPU cores or beyond to 12 or 16? I'm not trying to be too skeptical or put you guys on the spot, but I deal with "multithreaded" software on a daily basis and see these claims every day. Yet, very few applications can do what they claim and I'm tired of dealing with "fully multithreaded" software that does OK with 2 cores, barely does any better with 4 and crashes into a flaming pile of bits when given 8 CPUs to work with.
Click to expand...

REDCODE benefits more from multiple CPU's than REDCINE (which uses the GPU as well, hence less work for the CPU's).

On a 4 cpu machine here REDCODE is giving me around 95% CPU load on all the 4 cpu's. I'm gonna test 8 and hopefully 16 cpu machine's over the next few months. It should scale well to 8 cpu's, after that I expect a slight drop off in CPU utilization. But we'll have to wait and see :)

I understand you're concern and we are really focussed on using the available resources well (helps us in decoding speed, so that's good for everyone!)
 
Rob, thanks for the response. That's exactly what I wanted to hear (er.. read). :)
 
Thanks Rob that is good to know. I really think that to have a smoth running red system you are going to need to look at Mac Pro all the way. And even mabye a render server situation (if we REDCINE can). As for just editing if you are using REDCODE. I don't think it would be to frusterating to run it on a Mac Book Pro. At least I hope not. I use high rez RAW files all the time in Apature on mine and it kicks but. So I think we are good. But for actually processing the footage the more power you got the faster the blue (RED) bar will move.

Hey Rob I don't remeber if you or anyone stated on DVXuser. But is REDCINE going to be able to acess a cluster of servers and utiliz them for processing...
 
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