How many in LA planning to rent out their Red?

[Chris Gearhart]

All that being said, I'm in Chicago! Nanny nanny boo boo.

 

[donatello b]

i think INDIE's rate at 495 day/ 3day week is a fair price and goes hand in hand with RED sale price...the sale price of RED is NOT priced against current cameras that it outperforms ..
INDIE's price seems based on the cost of RED ( as a cinema camera not video camera) and NOT where it fits into the current rental market ( it does more then cineAlta so price it higher then cineAlta= cineAlta rental may have to be repriced) ...
the reason we can buy a RED is because RED is not priced where it fits into the current crop of camera's it outperforms !!! RED is not a video camera .. video camera's have always been priced higher ( rental) then film camera's because they have a shorter shelf life ...

i think if we look over to the DVX 100/HVX200/digitbetacams and other video camera's the day rate for those have NOT fallen in the rental houses - and 1000's own them privately...

there might be a RED rental premium during the 1st few months ? but once rental houses have a good stock the price should level out ..and of course premium rental houses will have their own accessory loaded REDS ( otto-red, clairmount-red etc) at a premium price ...

IMO there is going to be a shortage of PL lens in many markets after 1500 REDs hit the street ...

 

[Roxco]

Until RedUser has local forums, or for those who prefer email so they can filter it themselves. I put together a Yahoo Group for LA and another email based list for general RedCam issues - see below.

Rosco

-

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=375

For those in the LA/Hollywood/SoCal Area:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Red-LA/

Let's get this email party started,

Rosco

P.S. There is also a Red-L for everyone to use:

Here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Red-L/

These are Yahoo groups and you can hide your info.
They are open to all without moderation until noisy.

 

[Eric MacIver]

We're not trying to be Walmart or undercut everyone. We will beat or match any other rental house's price, but that's because we want to make sure we're offering our customers the best price and service in the area.

I know everyone would love to charge $1,000/day to rent their body. I'd love to be able to do that as well, but if anyone planned on doing that, I can guarantee you that the next guy would do $900, because that's a good amount to him/her. Then, the next would do $800, and so on and so forth until a good rate is settled upon.

We decided to try and make a fair price for everyone from day one. We're INDIE rentals. We're trying to help the independant filmmaker achieve their dream, because I'm one of them and I understand the struggle. I think that's where Red is coming from as well and I respect them greatly for that, because they could charge $30k for this camera and it'd still be a huge bargain.

Right now a Canon XL-H1 rents at $325/day. That camera was about $9,000 new and has a limited life (as HDV will be outdated at some point). Red is $17,500 and if it's modular, then it'll have a longer life. Compare it to Varicam's that are more than twice as expensive and go out at $800/day with lens. Also take into account anticipated repair needs, etc.

I'm guessing, but it sure seems like $500/day is where things would settle for the body only. Perhaps someone can start a poll on here to see what everyone else thinks. I mean, if the whole industry was at $800 and we were the only ones at $500, I can tell you, we wouldn't be killing all the business and we'd consider raising our prices a bit to match standards and demand.

 

[Martin Drew]

What would you be offering for $495, literally the body only, or does it include batteries and some drives?

M

 

[Charles Papert]

I've been forecasting for a while a scenario on how this issue may play out. From what I've read on the boards, I think a certain percentage of people who plan to buy RED cameras are doing so because they think it's cool and state-of-the-art, and not because they actually have a business plan to pay it off. Chances are that they have previously owned DV/HDV/small format HD cameras and perhaps made a bit of money doing odd jobs with them here and there, maybe even write off the fact that they haven't recouped their investment by considering this an expensive hobby. Let's call one such chap Bob.

Bob eagerly plunks down the deposit on RED and when his number is called, frantically scrambles to get a loan from bank or family to bring his baby home. Scours the boards to figure out the absoute cheapest way to accessorize the camera with mattebox, follow focus etc. Gets his whole package together (maybe without lenses though, being resigned to rent as needed) and builds a fantastically gorgeous website to sell his services.

Bob calls up his old clients and raves about his new camera, they think it sounds great, but when the first job comes around, the budget is basically the same as it was on DV. No problem, introductory deal time and off Bob goes to shoot the local car ad or corporate quickie with his shiny new RED camera for $400 day labor and gear combined. The client is enthusiastic about the images (or at least pretend to be, as far as they are concerned they can't really see the difference!!) and promise that the NEXT one will be better paid--as it turns out, the next one is less money: "help us out on this one though, Bob", they say; "we've got a big job coming in June" (which goes away in April).

A few months down the road, Bob is looking at his monthly nut and panicking a bit--there's all kind of great accessories and lenses and things coming out to support the camera, and he really wants to own the latest toys, but he's not making enough money to cover his loan as it is. So he drops his rental price on his website, creates package deals, "lowest price in town!' type of stuff. Meanwhile, there's other guys in town doing the same thing (but darn it, THEY own a whole set of lenses, and they are offering even cheaper packages!).

Bob has been renting his lenses from Eric at IndieRentals, so they know each other. One day a producer calls Eric and asks him for a half-price rental on a RED package, because that's what they've been paying Bob. Next time Bob calls Eric, Eric rightfully wonders to Bob why he's been giving his package away, and Bob can only shrug and say "it's all they'll pay--I've gotta keep the camera working!"

And on it goes. Of course, there are going to be higher-end clients who will pay the appropriate rate, because they are used to paying for Digibeta and Varicams etc., but there's a large market that has embraced the lower cost structure of small format video that are going to have a hard time paying more.

Another parallel scenario is those who buy their packages to make low-budget short films and features etc...chances are they won't be budgeting or getting any more money for the camera package than they were for a DV/HDV type setup, as these types of projects are usually cut to the bone anyway.

I draw a lot of this from what I have seen in the Steadicam world as rates and rental prices have slowly eroded even up to high-budget features with A-list operators. We've had plenty of discussion amongst ourselves about holding the line, but there is always someone who is willing to work for less money (and amazingly, producers and studio bean-counters that embrace the "logic" of saving $400 on the budget sheet versus paying an hour of overtime for the entire company when the inexpensive/less experierenced operator needs many more takes to get the shot).

I think that $500 a day is a very fair (perhaps too fair) price for body-only, but of course there will need to be a known set of accessories such as hard drive, various support bracketry etc. which will likely ensure that there is no such thing as a $500 rental--the a la carte items will likely drive the starting price up to $650 at least.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Bob-bing away

Bob-bing away

Charles, as usual, is all over this issue. In the last year or two I have gotten much more militant about holding to my rack rates. If we keep undercutting each other then eventually nobody will be able to feed their families. The vexing piece of the equation is that many clients and even some producers simply do not understand or care about the finer points of image quality. The extra takes required when green operators dump the shot is often just considered par for the course - and considered worth the trade off for the lower rate, especially if the crew size is small.

I wish I had some wisdom to share on this, instead I just wonder if I will be able to stay in this business. My best idea so far is to try and educate producers. The wide availability of HD media (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray) should help (whenever it happens), as it will make it easier to get HD reels out. I am also hoping that the image quality of the RedOne and other newer HD or better cameras will make the differential between SD and HD more obvious. There is also the improvement in the general baseline of display tech in the field which may be the cart pulling the horse, but at least its pulling toward higher quality.

Bottom line - dropping your rate to get work is very short sighted and affects all of us, not just you. PLEASE don't do it.

-yes, I am going to get flamed by the "how can you blame me for trying to survive" posters but this issue is critical to all of us.

 

[donatello b]

what exactly are the rack rates ?
perhaps somebody could post a out line of rates ??
i guess it all comes down to where each is currently sitting ..
seems everybodys rate is all over the place .. for some it might be 500 day others 2500+ day ...
IMO camera size has NO affect on ones day rate ...
one has their DAY rate (10hrs -none of that flat day rate that could go 18-20hrs) .. then there is equipment rate = 2 separate items.

then there is the rate you do for friends on their project ...

i do have friends that have several rates .. corporate, commercial, feature, doc etc ... and most tend to charge more if they are shooting film ?? now that i don't get?? but then i do the exact opposite -charge 3-4X my day rate to shoot SD 2/3" ccd type camera 's ? soooooooooooo i guess we all have our little premiums

 

[Ben Feuer]

Charles's concerns affect all people thinking of renting RED; a community of peers would be precisely the thing to avoid such a situation. In more professional circles, these are referred to as unions; they have their flaws but they are beautiful things.
Professional, career renters shouldn't be forced to match the prices of hobbyists casually recouping cost. But in a union-less world, that is precisely what comes to pass. It's a tragedy of the commons for a cinema world.
I, for one, will adopt a zero-favors pledge on my RED. That means no assistance without pay in cash or in kind. It was different when I was in school, but now that I'm in LA, seeing the kind of hubris and injustice the "I have a great movie" mentality breeds, I'm feeling a bit less ... charitable.
In all things, fairness should be the guiding principle. But that door swings both ways.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

Hmmm . . . I just posted this in the other "rental" thread, but decided it would be more relevant here instead . . .

. . . Well, I just spoke with some F900 shooters at work, and the going rate for F900 packages appear to be $1,200/day on the low end, to about $1,500/day on average (in the Los Angeles-area market). This is a minimal package with one lens, sticks, and bricks. This is a bit higher than I thought they rented for. I had thought that F900s rent for about $800-$1,000/day, but I must've been basing my estimates on weekly rates. My personal RED rental rate (should I decide to rent at all) will likely fall somewhere in between Indie Rentals' $500 rate and these F900 rates. On the low end, I think $850/day is a reasonable starting point. But I forgot how many days in a week those F900 rates were for. Are people mostly doing 3-day weeks or 4-day weeks these days?

Now I'm going to read indie rentals' posts and the others and post a follow-up comment . . .

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

Well, just read Indie Rental's post, and as a customer, they sound like a great place for people like us! I had never even heard of IR until now, and I drive right by its offices EVERYDAY! Hopefully they'll welcome a walk-in visit from me someday soon!

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

FWIW, here's some of my (minimal) rental experience . . .

Panasonic DVX100 major L.A. rental house rate: $275/day.
Ralph Oshiro's DVX100 rental rate: $250/day.
I rented my DVX100 to a stage. It sat there for several months and earned $6,000. I didn't give them a discounted week--I simply added extra accessories at no charge (which was nearly the dollar equivalent anyway).
*[Note: this was almost two years ago--rates have lowered considerably, I'm guessing, on this camera]

Panasonic SDX900 major L.A. rental house rate: $550/day.
Ralph Oshiro's Sony DSR450 [Sony's quasi-SDX900 look-alike 2/3" DVCAM] rental rate: $450/day.
I rented it to a show for two days and paid 90% of the cost for all my new bricks.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Rates?

Rates?

I think $850/day with a decent zoom lens, sticks, bricks and at least 3 RedDrives would be in the ballpark in LA. One thing I am thinking is that the traditional 3 day week might not make sense when the RedOne first hits the market due to supply being so limited, maybe a 4 day week until the market floods and then shift back to a 3 day week. Some folks do 8 day months which I don't see making sense for the RedOne for a least a year.

I am planning to set my rack (standard) rate at $2,000/day with support van, monitor, lenses (still primes, cine zoom), batts, RedDrives, computers for data management, me as DIT. I will discount for multi-day gigs but never below $1,000/day no matter how long the show lasts. Of course this is comparing apples to oranges since it includes a person which is normally not part of a camera rental.

This is all hypothetical of course since price fixing is a crime

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

I am planning to set my rack (standard) rate at $2,000/day with support van, monitor, lenses (still primes, cine zoom), batts, RedDrives, computers for data management, me as DIT.

That sounds right on the money [forgive the pun]! You as the DIT, plus all that support gear--that's a great rate for a lot of support. I think F900 owner/operators make between $2,000-$2,500 a day for the gear, themselves, and a sound guy.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

One thing I am thinking is that the traditional 3 day week might not make sense when the RedOne first hits the market due to supply being so limited, maybe a 4 day week until the market floods and then shift back to a 3 day week. Some folks do 8 day months which I don't see making sense for the RedOne for a least a year.

I hope we can do 4-day weeks too! Eight-day months? Wow! It used to be 12-day months, no? What do you think a fair monthly rate would be for RED in the first year?

 

[Eric MacIver]

Believe me $500/day rate is BODY ONLY and is subject to change. With the viewfinder, zoom lens, redrail, 2 drives, 3 batts, charger, sticks/head, follow focus, matte box, NDs, cabling and an HD monitor (comparable to an F900 "package") I'm GUESSING we'll be at about $1250 (comparable to an F900 "package").

We are a full-service location and we though we have our low-price guarantee, if everyone in the area is charging $800/day and our cameras are busy, then we'd raise our rates.

We don't operate on a business model of undercutting everyone. Those business are out there and they tend to provide poor service, support and selection. If we were to undercut too much, it would hurt our ability to support our gear as well as we do (24/7).

FYI, this is another reason I suggest individual owners work WITH their gear or sub it out through a rental house when they aren't working with it. It solves the insurance problem, gives you job credits, helps you keep your rates higher, avoids servicing and theft problems, etc. Trust me... More than one customer at a time and you have to start getting into problems you probably don't want to deal with unless you want to make that your full time business.

And Charles had a good point. As excited as owners are about going out with their Red's just to test them, it might be a good idea to always own another camera to at least "force" your client to pay more for the Red - even if it's just to train them that there is a difference... For your own benefit.

Anyway, we're on Highland, just south of Sunset in Hollywood - anyone is welcome to come by and discuss with us 9-5, M-F.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

Believe me $500/day rate is BODY ONLY and is subject to change. With the viewfinder, zoom lens, redrail, 2 drives, 3 batts, charger, sticks/head, follow focus, matte box, NDs, cabling and an HD monitor (comparable to an F900 "package") I'm GUESSING we'll be at about $1250 (comparable to an F900 "package").

Well, that sounds like a very sound price schedule. It's totally in-line with competing packages, and clearly maintains the "value perception" of the product. Renting from a "real" company with a real office and real support staff definitely has its benefits. Indie Resources sounds like a great place to do business with. Also, you can't beat that central, Hollywood location.

Anyway, we're on Highland, just south of Sunset in Hollywood - anyone is welcome to come by and discuss with us 9-5, M-F.

Would love to stop by someday and say hi!

I assume it's confidential, but how many RED ONEs has your company reserved? Also, are you aware of any of the other big L.A. rental houses that have RED reservations (you know who all I mean)? I'm dying to know if any of the big shops in town had the vision to make any commitments to RED.

 

[Bruce Allen]

You Red people are very nice - thank you so much for all of your responses to my original question! I look forward to renting a Red in the future

Of course I wish I could buy one but promising to pay $17500 would be an offer in bad faith because I don't have that kind of money in my bank account!

If anyone runs out of money when paying for the Red, let me know - maybe I can buy some rental time in advance from you (hopefully for a good rate!). Still better than paying interest to financial institutions...

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Steven Parker]

I too am in LA and hope to rent out #1037 on occasion...

by the way Lakeview, I'm from Chicago and can work locally so let me know if you need another Red!

penfever, please include me in this LA-area Red Group... I'm flying solo, shooting a lot of little indie features so Red makes sense as my first camera purchase, but to be a part of support system that's being talked about here is invaluable - how do I join?!

It seems right to me to be in the $1200/day range for a fully set-up Red - sticks, bricks, drives and some kind of RedCine support/transfer. But lenses are where I differ...in my work, I'll be using 35mmPL primes mostly; others will bring their Nikkors, still others will shoot B4...perhaps rates will depend on the chosen lens package/final rez the client wants?

I mean, if I have a shoot for a client who needs 1080p, do I go out and rent an F900? No way. I've got #1037!

But can I charge the client above as much as I would charge the client who wants 4K RAW?

 

[Eric MacIver]

Would love to stop by someday and say hi!

I assume it's confidential, but how many RED ONEs has your company reserved? Also, are you aware of any of the other big L.A. rental houses that have RED reservations (you know who all I mean)? I'm dying to know if any of the big shops in town had the vision to make any commitments to RED.

If/when you stop by you can peak at our titanium "R"s. Suffice to say I plan on having the most in LA