How important is onset DIT if I'm shooting 2k?

[Derek Osedach]

I'm line producing a super cheap 13 day shoot pretty soon on Red and would like some advice on whether or not I should to hire a seasoned DIT for on set color grading and capturing. Pretty sure I can capture the footage and back it up myself with my powerbook, and if we're shooting 2k in the first place (end product is SD dvd) would a paid DIT be worth the extra expenditure?

We're going to have a very limited time frame with post production, so I figure shooting 2k will help streamline the whole process so less things can go wrong in the hurried post job. Also, we'd save money on harddrive purchases and rentals...

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

The only step that I can think of required for 4k footage over 2k footage is scaling it to whatever you want your "out" to be.

In terms of CC, there really isn't much of a difference besides transcoding times.

 

[Mike Prevette]

*****EDIT: Looks like the original poster changed his post dramatically so this no longer makes sense.


Film or commercial? Short or long?

There are really no extra steps with 4k over 2k that I can think of.

The biggest difference between the two will be storage space. For 99.9% of jobs you never deal with the footage at it's full resolution. You almost always make smaller files to work with. Then very rarely do you ever process anything at full 4k, it just doesn't make sense except for a very final stage of a filmout, and even then people usually do all the heavy lifting on a smaller file before the project gets funding for something like that. That being said why not start with the most info possible.

I would highly recommend biting the bullet on 4k and spending a bit more on storage for a lot of reasons. I'll list the main ones:

Wider field of view. Since 2k is a "crop" or "window" on the sensor it's harder to get wide.

Better low light performance at 4k, you have more "meat" to the image and noise is less prevelant.

Overall smoother look, the extra tonality of a lot of extra pixels leads to a much nicer image IMHO.

You have the 4k if you ever go to a film out or get more funding to finish something.

 

[Michael Morlan]

Hi Derek,

I'm offering my input both as a DP and DIT.

First, the resolution you are shooting in has no consequence on your choice of personnel and process.

I'm sure some camera tests by your DP in pre-pro will help with most on-set issues. That's how they do it with celluloid. Then the DP can make intelligent decisions on set about exposure based on his desired look and any planned post grading.

With RED One, gone are the days of arcane engineering menus to color/grade the image in-camera. Back then, you needed a DIT trained by the camera manufacturer to assist the DP in achieving desired looks. RED One has no engineering menus (that we know of) and looks are fine tuned in post.

Today, a RED One DIT is instrumental in assuring workflow from acquisition through post, providing on-set grading and review (if it can be afforded and is desired), and securing footage (if that task isn't being handled by a separate DMT.)

That said, a focused and anal-retentive DMT is your lifeline to securing footage. Someone has to log, transfer, and duplicate everything coming off the camera. Don't shirk on that or you will wonder where that reel 8 went.

Best,

Michael

 

[David Didato]

Getting the best shots is going to be your priority so the 2x wider field of view is a huge factor. Unless you are going for a "cloverfield" nausea cam ;-)

Plus having the 4K to go back to will allow you to push in on selected shots if need be. Not having the $ for a color correct doesn't have much to do with 2K vs. 4K. What colorspace you shoot in will - test them out for the look you want. You may lean towards rec709, and you may also build a look in the camera ahead of time so your proxies already have a pre-graded look that you can cut and finish with.

 

[Chris Gearhart]

What Michael said. You don't need a DIT/DMT because of file size, but

1. because of his expertise in managing the RED and it's data; and
2. because paying someone whose only job is the image/data assures your image gets safely to post.

 

[Matthew Bennett]

I can't say you will be satisfied with the image if you don't do some sort of grade or curve.
That's what the whole fun in RED is... grading and painting those lovely high-tonal detail images!!!
What a bummer...

 

[Darren Orange]

You have to do a one light on RED, much like you would have to do on film, to make sure everything is right. But that should not cost, how is it being edited? Just use REDCine to do a one light and you should be alright. NEVER shoot 2K unless you need to shoot high speed.

No offense but why is a line producer making this call?

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

I'm a line producer gearing up for my first time shooting Red, and I'm doing it on a shoestring budget. We're not going to have the money or time for any kind of real color correction in post production, so I was wondering if it would be better to shoot in 2k or to shoot in 4k, as far as what'll look better as a final product sans color grading/correction. In other words, which format is better for "run and gun."

I understand that 4k requires a few more steps than 2k, and every minute and penny is going to count on this shoot...

Derek, not to be rude, but seriously... it sounds like RED ONE (which is a film like workflow)
is not suitable for run and gun... I would look at P2 or SxS i.e. tapeless workflow... like Panny or Ex-1 and just use FCP.

content acquistion (i.e filming) is obviously an important stage, but if you arent saving any money for post (where I would argue most films are "made") that is usually a recipe for failure 99.9999% of the time...

ask your producer (financier) if they want to have yet another indie movie that will never see the light of day... i.e get finished properly. RED ONE is killer... but its a LARGE file size workflow... unless you deliver proxies only.

Curious as to what is so critically important, deadline wise, that you cant even take the time to properly finish the film and at least do some color correction in COLOR?

bottom line. (and im sure some on here will disagree) but a SHOESTRING BUDGET and RED ONE are not synonomous...

UNLESS you have a LOT of time on your hands ... time is the only counter to RED's workflow...

and regardless, I hope you have a great DP and gaffer to light and shoot everything so well, that you barely need color correction or grading...
or you are going to find yourselves seriously wanting... for time and/or more $

EDIT... YES on hiring a D.I.T!! as they will pay for themselves in spades if you DO shoot RED.

best of luck with your shoot

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm just echoing others here... A good DIT is worth it because a good DIT knows the RED and related workflows inside and out. Can troubleshoot and support the camera on-set. Will provide all necessary support and equipment for proper offload and backup of your footage, etc.. When you shoot 2K, you still generate just as many clips, they just take up less space. So you swap CF cards less often. You will probably swap and offload drives every 20 to 30 minutes or whenever possible around those times as it just makes sense. And many of us don't trust our valuable footage to be sitting on a relatively fragile mechanical RAID-0 device. I don't relax until all my shots are in the can and I have a master copy and two backups.

I recommend shooting 4K. The time savings of going to 2K is pretty minimal and there are a lot of advantages to shooting 4K. The end product will look better and sharper, and you can hide a lot of soft focus through down-sampling. You may want to take a serious look at the 4KHD mode (3840x2160), which is a quad-1080p mode. It downsizes to 1080p real easily and fast and gives most of the benefits of shooting full 4K. Shooting 3K is also a good compromise between 2K and 4K with a lot of nice characteristics. However be forewarned that 3K is currently not supported in Final Cut Studio with the native L&T importer.

You're doing SD DVD as a final output. I would recommend doing a primary color correction on your clips in Red Alert and exporting them to your intended edit format, such as ProRes. You didn't say how you intend to edit this. But for SD DVD, you can do a half-res debayer to 720p ProRes for editing and it will convert rather quickly.

Lots of options here. There is also native support for R3D in both Final Cut and Premiere CS4 now. So direct transcodes are not necessary if you're comfortable with the current limitations of these beta workflows. If you know what you're doing or your editor does, then they are production ready. But I wouldn't recommend jumping into a new workflow on a tight deadline. I did that with the RED CS4 workflow and it was a nightmare. However, I learned a lot and that is now my preferred workflow.

As Michael suggested, some tests are in order if you can. I steer a lot of people away from shooting 2K simply because it's a center crop of the sensor. Unless you have 16mm lenses or HD lenses with a B4 adapter, framing wide shots becomes a real problem and you're sacrificing resolution, often with the illusion that you will save time or space down the road.

 

[Conrad Hunziker]

Pretty sure I can capture the footage and back it up myself with my powerbook,

BTW- a powerbook wont cut it. You will want to view each clip to make sure you got the takes you want - the files wrote correctly, copied correctly, sound is ok, picture is consistent, etc. You'll need an intel-based computer to do all of that.

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I'm line producing a super cheap 13 day shoot pretty soon on Red

I don´t know what super-cheap means, but I do one-man run and gun and what-have-you-not RED shoots (also large scale productions), and although it is great to have a DIT - it is a widespread misunderstanding that you need a DIT to use a RED ONE - I use RED as a one man crew all the time.

For super cheap high end filmmaking, RED is PERFECT! Shoot 4K, back up to at least two equal set of drives as you go, make sure you have at least two copies of everything in two different locations.

Import the 2K proxy files to Final Cut, edit realtime (setting FCP RT right), colorcorrect in Color if your money/time allows it, export as 2K prores or resize to whatever format you want to deliver using Adobe After Effects.

It´s easy!

If you aim for the high-end of the scale, utilizing every bit of color, and every pixel the RED can reproduce, of course the above is not recommended.
But you asked for super-cheap... and YES RED is the perfect choise wheter you are aiming for high-end or dirt cheap, a DIT is NOT needed for the RED to work.

Good luck and happy shooting!

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

I have done lots of commercials and one feature without a DIT and done the backup myself every day at lunch. It is not the optimum and it has been beacause the 3rd AC
havent been qualified. I never had an issue with the data though.
Fortunately I have a DIT for my next feature, and will actually get some food during lunch
JJ DP

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I use RED as a one man crew all the time.

I never had an issue with the data though.

YES but there's a difference when experienced RED owners and someone who doesn't know the camera are using it.

We're helping a production company trying to salvage they're whole day of footage because they figured the RED Drive is a HDD and therefor also put down their music etc to store for the project until they could off load it in the computer. It's now all scrambled and the RED camera + software does not want to read it.

Needless to say they didn't have anyone experienced with the RED on the shoot (a DIT) and they figured it was a piece of cake and a waste of money.

I also want to add that it wasn't our equipment they were using, we're just trying to help them solve it.

I guess the moral of the story is that you need an experienced guy on the set handling the data - call him DIT or not.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

PS I want to add that a good DIT or data wrangler is more appropriate, since they're not true DIT's. But a good one for me is when he's a combined 2nd/3d AC and DIT. It drives me mad when they're sitting by a desk only copying - looks like a big waste of time.

Sitting on their ass is of course not a problem if the project involves a lot of footage being shot so the DIT is occupied 24/7.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

But a good one for me is when he's a combined 2nd/3d AC and DIT. It drives me mad when they're sitting by a desk only copying - looks like a big waste of time.

It's of course not a problem if the project involves a lot of footage being shot so the DIT is occupied 24/7.

The former clapper-loader/2nd assistant can become a perfect datawrangler and 2nd cameraassistant if she/he is qualified. Qualification can be achieved in a short weekend training course. For many one-camera shoots this will be sufficient.
A computer/IT tech who wants to become a datawrangler/2nd assistant will have a harder time to fit into the needs of this job. To understand how a filmcrew works, what's important and what can be done later, etc... takes some time to understand. Technical knowledge comes second, IMO. The RedOne is first of all a camera.


Hans

 

[Casey Green]

Here is a great conversation regarding the Data Capture Technician / DIT positions and their responsibilities on set:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25238&page=2

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The former clapper-loader/2nd assistant can become a perfect datawrangler and 2nd cameraassistant if she/he is qualified. Qualification can be achieved in a short weekend training course. For many one-camera shoots this will be sufficient.

I suppose it depends on what you feel the role of a DIT is. I personally disagree with the above. To me, a full DIT knows the camera and all related gear inside and out. Something that can't be learned in a one-weekend training course, no matter how good the person is. A DIT is someone who is prepared for every scenario imaginable from firmware issues to a camera that stops functioning. To me, a 2nd AC / clapper / loader person who has had a crash course in copying files and organizing R3D data is not a "DIT". They are a 2nd AC / data wrangler. Two different things.

In the hands of a competent RED One operator, a full DIT is not necessary. I would highly recommend one in Derek's situation as it seems he and his crew are trekking into unfamiliar territory with a tight deadline. I find that the only people who consistently beat the "you must have a DIT" drum are the big union guys. No disrespect meant to them, but it's just one business model that not everyone adheres to. But I do feel that a good DIT is necessary on any larger production.

A computer/IT tech who wants to become a datawrangler/2nd assistant will have a harder time to fit into the needs of this job. To understand how a filmcrew works, what's important and what can be done later, etc... takes some time to understand. Technical knowledge comes second, IMO. The RedOne is first of all a camera.

Yep. I guess that's what I'm saying above, but from the opposite direction. For a fully competent DIT, it takes time for a camera person to learn that training. That said, I've run across far too many people claiming to be a "DIT" and they can't troubleshoot basic network issues, terminate a BNC cable or crack open a Macbook Pro to replace a failed hard drive (old model where you have to take it the F$@* apart). I had to do those three tasks myself on a shoot this past saturday and take time away from being DP / camera op because the "DIT" that got hired just sucked... I had to fix HIS computer, WTF?

If someone is going to be on set as a "DIT", at least on one of my sets, they had better damn well be able to serve the role of Director of Information Technology.

Some people consider a DIT to be a "Digital Imaging Technician". That's fine too, I don't see where that changes much of anything. A competent DIT still needs a firm understanding of all technical aspects that involve doing their job. If they bring their own systems and equipment, they had better be able to support it on-set.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

We're going to have a very limited time frame with post production...

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

All the previous advice is valid, and great. My 2 cents, you simply should not shoot RED unless you are prepared to color correct your footage. What is the advantage of shooting 4K RAW files if your not prepared to harness the power of them?

I often have to work on very tight timelines with Red footage, turning around music videos and TV commercials in 24-48 hours or less. I work with proxy files so I can get to work right away. I only transcode my selects after the cut is locked, working with Redcine to do full debayer transcodes. This saves loads of time, leaving time for the most important process when working with Red footage: color correction.

Keep in mind a little color grading can go a long way, but there are not enough tools (it doesn't have waveform, vector-scope, SDI output) in Redcine to make this a one stop tool, and at the minimum, setting proper black levels in a simple color grading package with a software WFM is essential. Balancing the ped and gain of the RGB channels goes a long way to getting a rich and natural look. These kinds of adjustments can be made very quickly with a 3-way color corrector. I wouldn't finish anything shot on Red with out them, or shot on most anything either, but when your transcoding RAW files to a 10-bit format, the extra step of color correction is essential.

Just my opinion of course. Good luck with your workflow.

 

[I Bloom]

All the previous advice is valid, and great. My 2 cents, you simply should not shoot RED unless you are prepared to color correct your footage. What is the advantage of shooting 4K RAW files if your not prepared to harness the power of them?

I hear you mate... but... the problem is if you are a DP and your footage goes into editorial not looking the way you intended you are inevitably in for some huge political headaches. So baking in an image on set, just to the proxies of course, is a really important step, for those who've experienced the agony of spending weeks on set doing your work only to have an editor tell you how it should look. Trust me, I've learned this the hard way.

IBloom