How do you make 3cP usable?????

[Dustin Cross]

For all you guys out there using 3cP, HOW?

I have had 3cp for a long time and keep upgrading for some crazy reason, but I find it almost useless.

The only thing I use it for is backing up media.

When working with Red footage I really want to use 3cP, but you can't manipulate any of the meta data with all the great tools in 3cP. When you import Red footage, you get a little pop-up window with a postage stamp view of the footage to set white balance and make the limited changes to meta data. I can't use the vectorscope, waveform, studio monitor or anything, just a stupid postage stamp view on my computer monitor. All the other tool are there, I just can't use them. I have told Bob and Yuri and everyone at Gama & Density we need a Red Tab and to be able to access the Red metadata while seeing scopes and external monitor and they say I am crazy. 99% of what I do to Red footage on set is manipulate meta data.

Next there is NO lift gamma gain three wheel color controls that is the main focus of every color correction suite in the world and again Bob and Yuri think I am crazy to want that. No professional they have ever met uses that!! What?

Render quality out of Clipfinder is better. I don't know what they are doing different, but Hans gives more control over render settings and the footage looks better. The main problem I have with rendering from 3cP is it locks up the entire program. I can't do anything in 3cP while it is rendering. There are settings to tell it to work in the background, but they don't work.

There are lots of great features I want to use in 3cP, but can't because they are locked out.

So my question for you guys who use 3cP and there are some big names here using 3cP on big projects, HOW?



Thanks,
Dusty
Local 600 DIT

 

[Dustin Cross]

Does anyone actually use 3cP?


Dusty

 

[Nir Shelter]

Hi Dusty.
I use 3CP last job I used it on was a low budget feature here in Australia. But it wasn't part of the official work flow I did it for practice if anything, then showed the DP so he knows about it. No body realy wanted to integrate on set color corrections as part of our work flow on this film. I guess that is more up to a cultural shift in the way of thinking about color correction than the tools we use.

Can't say I found the controls limited although a 3 wheel color control would be nice.

On importing files I would determine what color space they were to be viewed in after that it was up to curves and masks mostly.
I created looks for each scene exported reports and ref pics I left the metadata untouched as that would change the look the DP was shooting for.
What do you mean by manipulating metadata?

Nir.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Most of my on set color work with Red footage is changing the Red Metadata:

ISO, Exposure, FLUT, Contrast, Brightness, Kelvin, Tint, Saturation, red, blue, green, all the stuff that is saves as an RSX or RMD file. I can manipulate some of this in 3cP, but none of it can be done while seeing the 3cP scopes or the external monitor.

3cP allows me to make metadata changes in another program and import them to 3cP via the RSX file. If I am using one of the many free programs to do the color work, why should I use 3cP on a Red shoot?

You have lots of controls in 3cP, but not the right controls for Red footage, so why do I keep hearing about all the DITs on big Red shoots using 3cP?


Dusty

 

[Nir Shelter]

RSX files are files we can create post production for the R3D files. They are not the same metadata embedded with in an R3D file so you can't effectively change the parameters of the metadata in the R3D files. This is a good thing as it ensures a none distructive work flow.

I think what you are asking for is to be able to work with in 3CP monitor using the scopes currently available but have controls that correspond with the parameters that exist in the metadata. I agree would be a good option to have a RED parameter control page.

 

[John Brawley]

Hi Dusty.
I use 3CP last job I used it on was a low budget feature here in Australia. But it wasn't part of the official work flow I did it for practice if anything, then showed the DP so he knows about it. No body realy wanted to integrate on set color corrections as part of our work flow on this film. I guess that is more up to a cultural shift in the way of thinking about color correction than the tools we use.

I think the question really should be why do you want to colour correct in an environment that is hostile to ideal viewing conditions ?

Why do you want to spend time on set colour correcting while the crew waits for you to turn around the next setup ?

I too played with 3CP, speedgrade and even Kodak's look manager. The main issue I realised is that I actually don't want to spend any of my precious on-set time grading footage. Not only that but if you're on a shoot that's moving locations, how on earth are you supposed to maintain any kind of controlled viewing conditions ?

Instead I test extensively for looks in pre-production (when shooting RED or whatever) and then have them made into *looks* that can be recalled, or I just use my on set lighting stills and grade them myself to email on to the colourist as a starting point.

Whilst the idea of grading on set seems logical, I just found it's never practical because you don't have the time and / or the viewing setup ( no matter how calibrated you try to get them) are never ever the same anyway. So why try ? If you set things up properly in your post production workflow, I've found I can still get rushes that are very close without having to muck around with an extra person on set.

jb

 

[Dustin Cross]

John,

I have been grading footage on set for over two years now. I also transcode footage for editorial and separately for dailies on set. I have never held up a company move.

I am not doing the same thing the colorist is doing at the end of the project, but making sure the footage looks how the DP wanted. Sometimes that is done in camera and I don't do any color work on set and sometimes it has to be done out of camera. The new Arri Alexa records Log C, but the editors don't want to cut log C and people don't want Log C for their dailies, so someone has to color the footage before they make dailies and DHxHD files for editorial.

I do the best I can with the environment I am in, but that is also why scopes are so important to me. The lighting on my monitor can change, but my scopes aren't effected.

What I am doing on set is never the final grade, but it gives the colorist an idea where to start.


Dusty

 

[John Brawley]

John,

I have been grading footage on set for over two years now. I also transcode footage for editorial and separately for dailies on set.

But what is the the real advantage to doing this on set ? Why not do it in a safer, controlled and *consistent* environment. Aside from the DP's personal involvement in determining CC on every setup....which could be a compelling argument. Just for me personally, I usually don't have the time or headspace to do it.

jb

 

[Nir Shelter]

I have been colour grading on set for the last 2 years as well.
Not only for DPs that come from a film background who don't know to gage the effects of their lighting in a digital environment. But also with DPs well versed in the ways of digital cameras who want to guaranty a consistent look rite up to the grade.

True we can't ensure a perfect ambient lighting environment. But we can maintain the relationship between opposing colours and the level of detail in high lights and shadows. Could be that a DP planned on keying out a certain part of the shot and masks are needed. Overall colour wash if intended who knows the possibilities are endless.

Point is it gives the DP a better chance at preserving a look closer to his or her's intentions and the colourist a point to start from.

I have never held up a production or location setup on account of the onset grading. In fact I did a whole feature film doing so out in the middle of nowhere in the Australian outback. The DP is now shooting the Green Lantern and we always managed to squeeze a couple of grading sessions together during most days. Other wise I could tell by the end of week 1 what looks he was going for in a shot and would grade ahead of time. Then produce stills and show them to him 90% of the time I got it rite but when I didn't we would go back into the shot and re-grade.
The grader liked the workflow and said it came in handy when starting a grade on a scene.
When well planned a workflow can always be adapted to suit the production.

 

[Kaku Ito]

I wasted my time and money on 3CP, too. I paid for the last upgrade and didn't even get it.

Now Storm will be out, it's pretty much end of life for 3CP to me.

 

[Dustin Cross]

I have the latest upgrade, but very little seemed to change.


Dusty

 

[Jordan Livingston]

Storm looks like it's going to be awesome (I haven't used it yet so I can't compare it directly to 3CP) but keep in mind that 3CP is intended for other workflows besides just RED, and is particularly well suited to cameras where a 'temp' look is desired on set and fed to monitors, but not actually recorded.

3CP allows DITs to send references to this look to the post team, so they can re-create it later on almost any color grading system. It also interfaces directly with LUTher and Cine-Tal monitors.

I agree there are more effective workflows for RED specifically. But 3CP scales for any video format or even film shoots. I don't think it's valid to make a direct comparison to Storm, especially since the RED DIT workflow is so unique compared with any other camera.

Best,

- Jordan

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

But what is the the real advantage to doing this on set ? Why not do it in a safer, controlled and *consistent* environment. Aside from the DP's personal involvement in determining CC on every setup....which could be a compelling argument. Just for me personally, I usually don't have the time or headspace to do it.
jb

I think Dustin addressed your question about what advantage there is to doing a first light grade on set - dailies and monitoring looks reflect the DP's intent with reasonable fidelity and provides a reference for final color.

In terms of a consistent viewing environment I actually bought a van, lined it with gray carpet, made removable (so I could see to drive) black out panels for the windows and installed an eCinema monitor at eye level.

You point about having the "headspace" during production has proven the more cogent issue. Like Nir, once I have a good understanding of what the DP wants I usually get close enough for the purposes of a "one light" grade. I have found some DPs really appreciate the opportunity to at least have some personal input on the grade, even if they are not able to give it their full attention during production, as they are so often unable to be at the final grading session. YMMV.

FWIW I use Scratch on set rather than 3cP, IMHO it is still the best tool for RED footy. That said, 3cP has some terrific tools and serves some people very well.

Cheers - #19

 

[Dustin Cross]

Blair,

How are you using Scratch on set? I am interested in Scratch, but have never had a proper demo of it. I just did an Arri Alexa test shoot with Lucas using Scratch, but we never had time for me to get a proper demo of how I could use scratch as my on set workflow.

A van for my DIT stuff would be awesome. Since I am not in LA, I don't know if I can get clients to pay for it, so I would most likely eat all the cost myself and have to give it away for free on set. I have been looking at getting a little shuttle bus with Handicap lift and doing it thought. More for the AC than the lighting. In Texas I have producers that expect me to put my DIT cart with Mac Pros, RAID, and everything in the middle of a cow pasture when it is 105 degrees outside.


Dusty

 

[Chris Ratledge]

Most of my on set color work with Red footage is changing the Red Metadata:

ISO, Exposure, FLUT, Contrast, Brightness, Kelvin, Tint, Saturation, red, blue, green, all the stuff that is saves as an RSX or RMD file. I can manipulate some of this in 3cP, but none of it can be done while seeing the 3cP scopes or the external monitor.

I'm glad I found this post, cause I've been waffling on a purchase of 3cP, but now I'm even more hesitant for better reasons.

I saw a demo video online that showed a live color correection via a Matrox box and through a BMD HDLink Pro box, I'm guessing this is necessary to see the changes on a monitor or in the scopes? Are you referring to the 3cP scopes or external hardware scopes? Either way, the addition of the HDLink pro box adds a few more hundred dollars to the price of 3cP.... great.

video in question:
http://3cp.gammadensity.com/3cP_SET+POST_Features_Video.html

 

[Manuel Wenger]

I purchased 3cP after there announcement to upport the RedRocket. My plan was to use it for Look File Generation and Dailies on Set.
I used it for one TV Film but that´s it. 3cP doensn´t support any panel like the Wave or the MC Color, after Red updated the Rocket Firmware 3cP wasn´t able to support the Rocket any longer, and you´d have to pay another 99 bucks to get it working again, which i find annoying.
I use Speedgrade on Set since 2008 and I´m very happy with it. For dailies i use RedcineX with the Rocket.
My big wish would be that Redcine X would be able to import 3DLuts otherwise i don´t have any use for 3cP any more.

Manuel

 

[craigjkharris]

I think the question really should be why do you want to colour correct in an environment that is hostile to ideal viewing conditions ?

Why do you want to spend time on set colour correcting while the crew waits for you to turn around the next setup ?

jb

When DIT's have the power to make decisions like "Wether to color on set or not," then I and others could answer your question. However, I haven't worked on a job yet where I have the ability to tell the producer or DP what to do. If I can't color time on set, they'll find someone else who can.