How could they tell you installed a Birger?

[Michael Hastings]

What a wonderful pile of bullshit to wake up and read the first day of the year

Jay Kelly was right. some people should just shut the hell up. If you don't like what we are doing.. go buy another camera.

Not a great post for me to come back to either at the first of the new year.

I don't want to buy another camera. I bought a REDONE and have always been happy with that decision. One of the things I really liked was that I could buy a $700 Canon 10-22 and get the same quality it would have taken $25K for a fuji or canon lens to get with an f900 or Varicam. And I am happy with the trade to Epic program because you seem to have improved everything that I thought was lacking on the R1 and the improved sensor and other specs justify the additional expenditure.

And I don't think that was what Jay was saying - closer to the opposite: that most have shut up out of fear and that's not a good thing. I've tried to speak to what I think is a significant issue in spite of that fear. I don't think it is seriously harmful to RED or I wouldn't discuss it publicly as it is NOT my intention to trash you or RED.

And it's not just about Birger. I happen to have gotten a good deal on a Zeiss PL 10mm so I'm not even using Birger right now. It's about setting a precedent and how ridiculous it is that the difference between just loosening those four screws, and removing them and the inner ring, should be prohibited or cause some loss of rights.

Because in reality safely removing the whole pl mount and cleaning, adjusting, or switching mounts is well within the capabilities of anyone that can remember "righty tighty, lefty loosey" and operate an Allen wrench. And not to put words in Mitch's mouth, but I think his post was pointed in that direction. Besides alternate mounts, anyone that has operated in the dusty desert, or near sand, or high humidity, smoke, etc. would have a legitimate need to remove the whole mount and clean the OLPF and/or the area near the adjuster/camera interface.

And there's nothing like "gimme gimme gimme boo hoo" in this, I'm not asking for anything other than for us to be able to do the kinds of things we would be able to do with any other serious professional (not prosumer) camera.

As far as Birger, the original post and a couple recent posts on the Birger thread create, or at least indicate, some misimpressions that are not fair. Without rehashing it all I'm just trying say to people - that's not quite right.

I have to say, this is a very painful subject. Most people do not speak their minds about this issue out of fear.

This is a horrible thing, it's not what we're supposed to be about here.

Business, like war, can be an ugly thing sometimes.

Jay

Attaching the Birger mount is a little more than other mounts, but not much. RED doesn't say that you void the warranty if you choose to disassemble and then reassemble your own mount, such as if you wish to check the torque on the bolts or adjust centering. So they would have no way of knowing if you were adjusting your own mount or removing it to install another.

Except that you'll let out the magic pixie dust and the hamster will get off his wheel and run out.

I'd say... i know who is not going to be getting any favors from us anytime soon

Im so tired of the "gimme gimme gimme boo hoo" crap. It's like sitting in a room with a bunch of 2 year olds.

That would be void if you go past the first ring and remove.

Thanks again Mitch...

Heh heh don't worry we love Mitch.. We have had quite some history with him over the last couple years and you are right.. he always means well.

Hey, I always mean well too! Consider that it isn't easy or casual for me to stick my neck out here. I suppose I'll never make the love list, but any chance of moving up from the sh*t list to the

"I guess we'll tolerate that pr*ck, 'cause he seems to mean well?" list :smilewinkgrin:

All in all, this shouldn't be that huge of a deal. It's just that I have been around this industry a long time and I've thought it over thoroughly and I think you are making a mistake (and even if you don't, I get the feedback that others feel the same way.)

Other mounts and/or PL removal opens you up to more support calls, but that is just the way it is with being a manufacturer. And I know it's annoying because of the history, but try to think of it as less about Birger (let those bygones be gone) and think about it more as allowing us to use a professional camera in a professional manner.

---------------

PS Come to think of it, Mitch is the one that spilled the beans on the pixie dust and hamster - why does he still get the love? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Step 1: Relax butt cheeks.

Step 2: Unwad panties.

Step 3: Profit!

 

[Thomas Koch]

Is there a way to get a Canon Smart mount that does not void the warranty? We have a nikon mount and a RED ONE coming, but would love to use our EOS lenses before we upgrade to Epic.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Is there a way to get a Canon Smart mount that does not void the warranty? We have a nikon mount and a RED ONE coming, but would love to use our EOS lenses before we upgrade to Epic.

Ask about teh oen from Wicked Circuits - but it is no Birger Mount, just a dumb mount, so you need an Eos camera on set to set aperture

 

[Martin Weiss]

Are Wicked Circuits still in business? Am only asking because I haven't heard from them in a year. They were working on a smart mount, and I know of at least one working example in the open wild. It did sound promising back then, so maybe hope is in order...

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Are Wicked Circuits still in business? Am only asking because I haven't heard from them in a year. They were working on a smart mount, and I know of at least one working example in the open wild. It did sound promising back then, so maybe hope is in order...

Yes, they are still in business. BUT - again, this is no Birger Mount. rather crude by comparison.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

FYI. As long as you don't break anything RED can't void your warranty for something unrelated. I.E. They can't void the warranty on your CF reader because the lens mount gets screwed.

Can't remember the exact case precedent but those little stickers that say "opening this sticker voids your warranty" aren't legally binding. So if you improperly remove your battery you can't be denied warranty on the screen unless the company can provide a plausible explanation of relevance between the two actions. The question is whether or not a lens mount would fall under the auspices of tie-in products. Your warranty can't be voided for instance by not using GM brand oil at a GM dealership. But of course if you take it to Bob's repair shop and they screw up the oil change then it's your own damn fault.

Not saying the Birger mount can't cause harm. It sounds like RED has had cameras damaged by the process from Jarred's posts so there is certainly some amorphous danger from the process but there are limits to what can be voided and consumers do have rights not necessarily expressed within the terms of warranty.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I always thought a warranty could have ANY conditions.

For example if Red did not like an actor, in the same way they (perhaps justifiably, I don't know the details) don't seem to like the men at Birger Inc. they could void your warranty (technically, I am not suggesting they would do this) if you shot that actor with your Red, or even if you shot that actor using another camera altogether. Warranties are whatever the executives at a company decide they should be at the time of purchase, no?

The executives at Red are powerful men in this matter (as they should be - it is their company, after all - we would not have Red cams at all if not for them), and they can write any terms they want, whenever they want. It is not our place, really to whine about them. As it has been said, you can always buy some other brand of cam, (and good luck selling that feature shot on a Varicam or a 5d! :-O!)

 

[Martin Weiss]

Isn't it that equipment for professional use only has a mandatory warranty of 30 or 90 days? Everything beyond that is just the producer being nice to their customers, in this case RED being very, very nice.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Exactly! It is silly to look the gift horse in the mouth!

Outside the U.S., we often find it a tad amusing (no offense) how Americans always speak of laws and lawyers and the rights they give you. under the cold light of real life the only rights you ever have are those that powerful men decide to allow you.

Here the powerful men at Red have been very, very generous. I would gladly pay 90k for what is costing me less than 18!

I honestly do not see it as anyone's right or place here to question their decisions. It is not our company. It is theirs, to run as they please, without our interference.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Isn't it that equipment for professional use only has a mandatory warranty of 30 or 90 days? Everything beyond that is just the producer being nice to their customers, in this case RED being very, very nice.

At its core American law actually is about what is reasonable and fair. Manufacturers (I've been one since 1982) can't just dictate all of the terms. The legal issues get fairly complicated because it gets into warranty law, industry standard practices, fair trade, restraint of trade, and other things.

Unfortunately, if it gets to the legal stage usually everyone loses, and often practical economics rather than truth, justice, and the american way can become the decider.

One of my favorite little known movies is O Lucky Man! (1973) A British movie with Malcolm McDowell and a great ensemble cast (including a young Helen Mirren). Usually gets four star reviews and has a great rock music score by Alan Price that won the British Academy of Film and Television Arts award for Best Film Music that year.

One of the classic tunes is called "Justice", check it out on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_u-Ka4E7k8

 

[Rob Ruffo]

At its core American law actually is about what is reasonable and fair. Manufacturers (I've been one since 1982) can't just dictate all of the terms. The legal issues get fairly complicated because it gets into warranty law, industry standard practices, fair trade, restraint of trade, and other things.

Unfortunately, if it gets to the legal stage usually everyone loses, and often practical economics rather than truth, justice, and the american way can become the decider.

One of my favorite little known movies is O Lucky Man! (1973) A British movie with Malcolm McDowell and a great ensemble cast (including a young Helen Mirren). Usually gets four star reviews and has a great rock music score by Alan Price that won the British Academy of Film and Television Arts award for Best Film Music that year.

One of the classic tunes is called "Justice", check it out on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_u-Ka4E7k8

I know it is BASED on that, but I have lived in Eastern Europe, and there you learn the reality of how things really work. "Keep your head down or it will be chopped off." is an expression I learned there. I think it is true anywhere. The rest in an illusion.

We depend on Red for our cameras. It does not matter if the Birger mount can or cannot harm a Red camera. What matters is that people with the 100% ability to not allow us access to the camera, or to the upgrade, say it can (or even vaguely imply it can.) This is enough for me. I simply agree. These men are smart right? Who am I to claim to know better? As mentionned, I do not think it is wise to question men in power, particularly publicly. You Americans have the fairytale delusion that you do have this "right", and that somehow questioning authority will pay off for you.

I would warn everyone on this forum to follow good Russian advice, and to post with great caution. Many Russains who follow this advice are rich now. Many Russians who don't are destitute, or have dissapeared.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I know it is BASED on that, but I have lived in Eastern Europe, and there you learn the reality of how things really work. "Keep your head down or it will be chopped off." is an expression I learned there. I think it is true anywhere. The rest in an illusion.

We depend on Red for our cameras. It does not matter if the Birger mount can or cannot harm a Red camera. What matters is that people with the 100% ability to not allow us access to the camera, or to the upgrade, say it can (or even vaguely imply it can.) This is enough for me. I simply agree. These men are smart right? Who am I to claim to know better? As mentionned, I do not think it is wise to question men in power, particularly publicly. You Americans have the fairytale delusion that you do have this "right", and that somehow questioning authority will pay off for you.

I would warn everyone on this forum to follow good Russian advice, and to post with great caution. Many Russains who follow this advice are rich now. Many Russians who don't are destitute, or have dissapeared.

Well, I'm going out to RED Day next weekend :grouphug:, if I don't post something Sunday, :seeya: please contact Jesse Ventura:

http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/index.html

Maybe he'll be able to find me... :wink5:

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Isn't it that equipment for professional use only has a mandatory warranty of 30 or 90 days? Everything beyond that is just the producer being nice to their customers, in this case RED being very, very nice.

Mmmm good point. Consumer protection laws may only apply to non-commercial equipment.

Always a sticky point with things like computers and DSLRs which are multi-purpose. Also is an HVX a professional camera or a Consumer Item?

As to the reason the US legislates this in the first place: because of abuses by unsavory characters in the past who have claimed "Warranty!" on their marketing and then proceeded to void the warranty under preposterous conditions such as "sneezing in the same room".

The time isn't required to my knowledge in the US. In the UK it is. You can have a 1 day warranty in the US it would just have to meet the requirements of the Magnusson Moss act for the advertised time period.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Well, I'm going out to RED Day next weekend :grouphug:, if I don't post something Sunday, :seeya: please contact Jesse Ventura:

http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/index.html

Maybe he'll be able to find me... :wink5:

I'm a big fan of Jesse Ventura. Watched the episode about the Bilderberg secret society last night. It was pretty good. I always love a good conspiracy theory...

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Mmmm good point. Consumer protection laws may only apply to non-commercial equipment.

Always a sticky point with things like computers and DSLRs which are multi-purpose. Also is an HVX a professional camera or a Consumer Item?

As to the reason the US legislates this in the first place: because of abuses by unsavory characters in the past who have claimed "Warranty!" on their marketing and then proceeded to void the warranty under preposterous conditions such as "sneezing in the same room".

The time isn't required to my knowledge in the US. In the UK it is. You can have a 1 day warranty in the US it would just have to meet the requirements of the Magnusson Moss act for the advertised time period.

But this is not prepostorous, is it. Surely any Red that has had a Birger on it has been damaged by this mount, or many have, otherwise there would be no warranty issue (or the warranty issue would be limited to not covering damages from bad installation, which is a risk for any mount - I mean, if I drive a screwdriver through the sensor, I cannot expect Red to pay for it). I'm sure many here could chime in with specifics about how the Birger reduced the functionality or damaged their Red- which is why I started this post, in part - I wanted to hear about the dangers from users, and evaluate them. I am not a technician in electronics, but I can see how a Birger could perhaps completely fry the motherboard via the comm port it uses in the mount. (?) I don't know enough to say. Is this a possibility? Has this ever happened? What other damage has been done by Birger?

I invite all Birger users to chime with their horror stories. It will help others, including me, from ending up with their fate, and evaluate real risks with better knowledge.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I think there is nothing to fear, posting problems you have had with your Birger mounts. This will only help other Red users. So far I have not been able to find any specific descriptions, just that it was "a risk". What risk? To what?

Please, if anyone has had damage to their camera from mounting a Birger, post it here. We need to decide what to do in terms of equipment strategy.

 

[Thomas Wright]

Yeah, 8 pages and no problems reported. hmmm. Perhaps they don't want to advertise their folly.

I do know a fella who took the screws out to tighten a connector from inside but didn't take note of which ones went where and, how do you say, hosed one of the boards.

 

[ericyoung]

Yeah, 8 pages and no problems reported. hmmm. Perhaps they don't want to advertise their folly.

I do know a fella who took the screws out to tighten a connector from inside but didn't take note of which ones went where and, how do you say, hosed one of the boards.

Or maybe there haven't been any problems with the Birger installation damaging the RED. Apart from the powering from the RED Aux Connector, the only electrical damage possibility is associated with the /i pin cable and connector, hence RED initially allowing it when the cable was carefully tucked away, but revoking it when it seemed it might be connected to the Birger mount. If Birger had been more upfront about this scenario, we might have been OK, but as that didn't occur it appears we're at an impasse with all sides feeling hard done by.

The problem is not that there was actually any damage done so far - it was the opening up of a possible damage scenario where RED didn't feel they were willing to allow that. While RED's marketing and customer service model is admirable - it has opened them up to users unreasonably holding them responsible for things which should be strictly the responsibility of the user and/or the third party manufacturer to fix and pay for. I can understand RED's position, while at the same time thinking the situation sucks.

Actually, maybe that's a possible solution? If Birger took out specific insurance to cover repair of damage caused to a RED by installing a Birger mount, then RED could just diagnose damage and pass any such damage back to Birger insurance to cover it. Presumably such damage would be quite specific due to a short circuit of power and/or data on the /i pin board?

What connector are you talking about Thomas? That doesn't sound so much like a Birger installation problem as plain inattention if not stupidity. No one should expect warranty cover if they do something like that! Of course unscrupulous people might try to pass that off as a fault, but I think a screwhole through a board would be easy to spot, and to some extent warranties rely on the majority of users being fairly honest anyway!

 

[Michael Hastings]

Yeah, 8 pages and no problems reported. hmmm. Perhaps they don't want to advertise their folly.

I do know a fella who took the screws out to tighten a connector from inside but didn't take note of which ones went where and, how do you say, hosed one of the boards.

What screws? you are not talking about the screws to the mount - you are talking about some other screws right?

If you take all of the screws from lens mount out - that is all of the screws to remove the pl portion and then the 4 screws that hold the adjuster on - all you have is the front face and the OLPF. Any other screws would be the whole front of the camera (which don't need to be touched for Birger or any other mount) or some other part of the body of the camera.

As far as reported problems, a lot of this was covered long ago in the Birger thread but to refresh:

The only ones I know about are the ones from the two Beta mounts that I and one of my underwater housing customers had that plugged into the rs-232/lens connector on the side of the camera. (WE bugged Erik to ship prematurely to get ready for a very big dive expedition/shoot - long before the others were shipped) Something got fried over several days of (our testing) use (Mine was actually being used for a couple days by my nephew for a student film shoot - which added to the confusion). Although we never got a formal report, we believe the lenses were overdrawing that circuit and although that situation probably could have been fixed, Erik just decided not to chance it and to take power from the rear DC connector.

Red was very gracious in fixing my camera at no charge for which I am extremely appreciative. (My customer was charged several thousand dollars.) We think part of the reason this situation escalated is that for a little while RED may have thought there were dozens of mounts in the field and it would be a major problem - when in reality it was just the two and as I say Erik changed to the rear connector. There has also been some confusion that has never been cleared up or confirmed because there was some mention in the thread that it may have been a pinched i/data connector - although neither I or my customer think that was the case (and they are a fairly technically sophisticated outfit with three R1s and Birger and Nikon mounts). And as many of you know the i/data cable vulnerability exists with the nikon mount as well - so it may just be a situation of trying to minimize, as much as possible, the overall changing of mounts.

As far as reported problems, obviously we don't know what is reported to RED, but for a long time I was sort of a de facto moderator on the birger thread and received many, many communications about a lot of birger related stuff (I probably know or have communicated with 25%+ of the birger owners - and have never gotten any reports of any more fried circuits.

I'm aware of a few software glitch/shutdowns, but I don't know of any actual physical damage to the cameras. I'd be interested to hear of any other damage as well.

**************************

Edit PS: I was writing this when ericyoung posted.

But I will say, this stuff about specific insurance and other proposals just isn't necessary - at least as it relates to RED (I don't want to get into a long discussion of liability insurance right now so take it a face value for purposes of discussion). No reasonable person involved with this (and there are many) has ever expected RED to warrant Birger mount damage or any other DAMAGE caused by third party products, improper mount removal or installation, or whatever. Again, RED did it one time (that I know of - and again thanks) and made it pretty clear right after that that they weren't going to anymore. And for whatever UNREASONABLE people may be out there, RED can easily, and legally, simply say no you have to pay to fix it. With any repair from any manufacturer the DEFAULT is that you are going to have to pay for a repair UNLESS there is an actual MANUFACTURER'S DEFECT.