House pisses me off

[Brad Webb]

Rob was a little harsh and emotional in his original post.

However, I do feel he raises a valid point. The point that some producers (not all, some) will see that House was shot on the 5D, and reason that it's good enough to use instead of other, better, more expensive cameras. Not because it's the right tool for the job, but because it's cheaper. Not knowing or caring that it can't really do the things they expect it to be able to do. Now this producer sees the results and is livid that it's doesn't look as good as House. You tried to convince them otherwise, but you lost out to House. Now you can tell said producer that you don't feel the project can be done on a 5D, and you lose the job. Or you can suck it up and do it because you need the work.

Some projects work like this:
The producer gets X money from whomever based on their proposed budget to finance a project. Now, if the producer only spends 3/4s of X, they can pocket 1/4 of the total budget for the project. This is why some producers are always trying to do it cheaper. Now you can rent a red for about $500 a day, or you rent a 5D for about $200 a day. That means the producer would be pocketing $300 a day. Now, the people that paid for the project are expecting to be up to the X budget quality.

This does happen. Not to everyone. Some people have great clients, who expect great results, but know they have to pay for it. Some people have crap clients that expect great results for 1/2 the price.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

And how dare you insult my shitty little reel. I worked my ass off for little or no money; beg, borrowing, and stealing to put that stuff together. I know what my reel looks like. Most of the time I'm the DP, cam op, 1st AC, and gaffer. I'm just now getting to that point in my career where I don't have to do everything all the time, and I'm getting paid a decent amount of dough.

I worked my ass off to save up for my 7D (yes, I had to save up to buy it) I love it, it's the most amazing camera I've ever owned. That doesn't mean it's the most amazing camera ever. It has it's strengths, and it has quite a few weaknesses. Most notably that it records h.264.

I think your reel has a lot going for it. I also think using a 7D for a reel is the perfect way to use it,a and that if it enables more people to prove their merit that it is a wonderful thing. I mean that. Keep it up.

 

[chrislancaster]

:closed2ur0: ?????

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob was a little harsh and emotional in his original post.

However, I do feel he raises a valid point. The point that some producers (not all, some) will see that House was shot on the 5D, and reason that it's good enough to use instead of other, better, more expensive cameras. Not because it's the right tool for the job, but because it's cheaper. Not knowing or caring that it can't really do the things they expect it to be able to do. Now this producer sees the results and is livid that it's doesn't look as good as House. You tried to convince them otherwise, but you lost out to House. Now you can tell said producer that you don't feel the project can be done on a 5D, and you lose the job. Or you can suck it up and do it because you need the work.

Some projects work like this:
The producer gets X money from whomever based on their proposed budget to finance a project. Now, if the producer only spends 3/4s of X, they can pocket 1/4 of the total budget for the project. This is why some producers are always trying to do it cheaper. Now you can rent a red for about $500 a day, or you rent a 5D for about $200 a day. That means the producer would be pocketing $300 a day. Now, the people that paid for the project are expecting to be up to the X budget quality.

This does happen. Not to everyone. Some people have great clients, who expect great results, but know they have to pay for it. Some people have crap clients that expect great results for 1/2 the price.

I can tell, like some but unlike some others here , that you have been around and know what the business is really like sometimes. Yes. This is exactly what I was getting at.

I get emotional. This isn't just about cameras, it's about standards, it's about valuing art and skill and attention over a fast-food, or patently unprofessional approach to filmmaking. Someone here mentioned America's Funniest Home Videos as something I should watch to "get" what was going on these days. That cameras don;t matter that image quality doesn't matter. If that's true then most of us here don't matter. The skills I traded my youth to learn while others were getting real jobs and partying are worthless. I'd like to think that's not true, that some viewers value their time more than to use it to watch the 768th cat hitting a screendoor on youtube and filmed with an iphone.

 

[Steve Dent]

There might be a greater worry for rentes or owner/ops who are hoping their value isn't depreciated in the market.

Now or in the near future, there probably isn't any technical reason why a Canon or Nikon couldn't eliminate most of the issues related to quality. The problems could at least likely be greatly diminished. They might now have a red, but at least something much more acceptable.

Some of the DSLR companies could limit their development on the video DSLR side for business reasons. The main reason being, they wouldn't want people to have more video capability in a $2,500 DSLR than a $7,500 professional video camera.

However, that argument can be slapped aside pretty soon, I predict. After all, Canon, Nikon et. al. don't really sell their cameras to DPs, production companies, film students, directors, etc. That's a tiny part of their market.

Their real markets are the teeming hordes of hobbyists, why buy millions of these cameras (11.2 million DSLR sales predicted in 2010). That's $US 5-7 billion in DSLR alone. But they will also sell 17.5 million lenses for those cameras, so it's an extremely profitable part of the digital camera market. (125 million units of digital cameras total).

Of course Canon is happy to open new market possibilities up with the new HD capability of these markets. But their core group of buyers, who are mostly tweakers at heart, will demand that these cameras have high video capability on top of the still capability.

You can now see, for example, birders including high-definition video clips on top of their photos of boobies and blue-belly suckers.

But a lot of these (mostly men) in this market are only taking vacation snaps. They enjoy the technical aspect of the hobby instead, comparing pixels, resolution, colourspace, lightroom raw colour timing, lens sharpness, etc. ad nauseum.

They will demand the highest level of video quality to match what they already enjoy in the still world. Does anyone really need 22MP to shoot bird or vacation snaps? So they will push Canon/Nikon on the video side, and those companies will deliver those features.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

The shit has hit the fan with this thread, people really need to be more civil on this site.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Tim H.

very nice write up mate. Unfortunately it doesn't matter. Folks here are brain washed and consider RED as a religion or a cult, not a tool. Its basically Scientology 101 here. People here, dont consider anyone a human being unless he/she prays to the RED one camera. Many folks here made $30-400k investment in technology by buying RED and expected the world the stop the development while they build up the cult. Not very clever. The last thing I would invest my money is into technology that changes everyday. Thats why its hard for them to accept the change. They have money but not creativity and it just sucks for them when students right out of film schools can have tools to take away their market and make their investment less and less valid.
HDSLRs aren't going away. Smart people are embracing this technology while red users pray to the non existing scarlet.

Tim, I would consider you the free human being. You have the ability to enjoy life and the technology. You re not brain washed, you re not in a cult, you re just free. You can use red, genesis, 5D2 and create amazing footage and believe me, there are more folks out there are just like you and me. We re free human beings that respect each other, a dying breed, but we re still out there.

That's great unless you want to make a living. I am not "just free" shooting whatever my mood tells me, I am paying for a family with this and I can't afford to re-shoot when my camera craps out on me. Not can I afford to have my show refused by a major network.

There is no cult - I mention many other cams here as being reliable tools that make sense from other companies. I even mention a Bolex as a viable option.

Also I fail to see how choosing tools that limit me to only shoot extremely thin depth of field with so many things I can never puts in focus - from bricks to a long list of fabrics, as "freeing".

 

[Brad Webb]

The shit has hit the fan with this thread, people really need to be more civil on this site.

I think it's calming back down a bit. It's been a heated discussion for sure. Yet I believe it has remained civil for the most part. I hope the thread stays alive until the episode of House airs. I would love to hear everyone's reactions to it.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

I will be honest, this is my favorite internet forum but the attitudes that some exhibit are really a put off for those who have not yet become part of the red family. Reading comments on forums like dvxuser, I hear that many are frustrated by the not common but certainly present opinion the red is vastly superior to all other methods. Many view reduser as a camera country club where you would be embarrassed to show up with anything other than red footage. I know that this is a red centered site but when we put down other gear, we alienate those looking to move up. A friend of mine, shooting 5D now, stated that he felt that reduser was populated by early adopters that scoff as shooting with the "line skippers".

 

[Rick Darge]

I honestly don't know what we're discussing anymore.

lulz thread is lulz

 

[Philip Bloom]

I have always considered places like this to be places to help each other not for bashing each other or making comments that read little more than comments from youtube, just with longer words!

Come on guys. The RED camera is awesome, what is coming out is going to be more awesome and in the meantime let's just be happy that things are moving forward and people are challenging preconceptions of what you can and can't do with something. RED is all about challenging the norm, and turning the establishment on it's head. So let the establishment be turned on it's head. That's a good thing. Who cares who is doing it because at the end of the day the people that benefit will be us, the filmmakers.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

I have always considered places like this to be places to help each other not for bashing each other or making comments that read little more than comments from youtube, just with longer words!

Come on guys. The RED camera is awesome, what is coming out is going to be more awesome and in the meantime let's just be happy that things are moving forward and people are challenging preconceptions of what you can and can't do with something. RED is all about challenging the norm, and turning the establishment on it's head. So let the establishment be turned on it's head. That's a good thing. Who cares who is doing it because at the end of the day the people that benefit will be us, the filmmakers.

Excellent post, I think this thread needs a chill pill. :001_unsure:

 

[Rob Ruffo]

:closed2ur0: ?????

Some posters here have been a bit rude, maybe me included, but most have been civil and real, new points have been made with information and experience that was not available when the first 5D vs X threads appeared. . I don't think it's cool to close any thread just because it's a lively discussion.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

I have always considered places like this to be places to help each other not for bashing each other or making comments that read little more than comments from youtube, just with longer words!

Come on guys. The RED camera is awesome, what is coming out is going to be more awesome and in the meantime let's just be happy that things are moving forward and people are challenging preconceptions of what you can and can't do with something. RED is all about challenging the norm, and turning the establishment on it's head. So let the establishment be turned on it's head. That's a good thing. Who cares who is doing it because at the end of the day the people that benefit will be us, the filmmakers.

Amen Philip!

Quick question, I wanted to first thank you so much for educating DSLR users and proving that it is a viable production tool in the right hands. Are you planning on adopting the Scarlet and continuing to educate the masses? I for one learned a great deal from your DSLR blog entries and hope you do the same with the Scarlet. There are a ton of future Scarlet users that have never read this forum and will need to be taught and you are the perfect man for the job.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I have always considered places like this to be places to help each other not for bashing each other or making comments that read little more than comments from youtube, just with longer words!

Come on guys. The RED camera is awesome, what is coming out is going to be more awesome and in the meantime let's just be happy that things are moving forward and people are challenging preconceptions of what you can and can't do with something. RED is all about challenging the norm, and turning the establishment on it's head. So let the establishment be turned on it's head. That's a good thing. Who cares who is doing it because at the end of the day the people that benefit will be us, the filmmakers.

I'm sorry Phil, but I disagree. I'm all for someone releasing a $100 camera that shoots 1080p perfectly with low noise. I will be the first to pre-order and use it on a major job, IF it delivers on what it is supposed to do.

Misinformation does not help filmmakers, it is rather dangerous to them. A friend of mine shot a commercial on the 5D, and lost his shirt when half the takes had to be re-shot. Another friend wasted many days of a feature shoot, his first feature, using a 5D - as the film takes place in city streets and you can't have every shot be a shallow depth of field close-up. It almost ruined his career. I took them both out drinking. I took no pleasure in saying "I told you so". They were both influenced by the very hype the House shoot creates.

I don't think their real hardship is anything we should be embracing, and its' an insult to Red to say that they created false hype in the same way. They were always honest about limitations, from day 1, and still are. Because most of their users wre pros, not first-time amateurs like a majority of those using the 5D, correct, verifiable info was quickly available about any or all shortcomings, and still is on this forum for every build.

It's nice to be positive with posts like yours and then everyone applauds you, but there are some real, negative facts that are also important to address, even though nobody wants to hear them, and even though someone like me gets s--t on for bringing them up.

On the topic of misinformation, I would like to call you on one bit of it. The guys at Lucasfilm, I'm sure, said "Wow that's pretty cool for a $2500 camera" when they saw your 5D footage. I said that too, and still think it's true. However, I doubt they said "Let's shoot our next feature with this" or let's shoot our next anything with this, much like I also did not. I'm not saying you claim they did, but that's the impression gleaned, the internet myth spread.

Meanwhile indy little companies like Redrock, who finally got their 35mm adapters to be VERY good are getting no sales, despite the fact that their products can produce a much higher HD image quality than a 5D, and don't cost THAT much more. How is it beneficial to stear filmmakers away from affordable solutions that would be safer for them to use on their first pro gigs? That's what this hype is doing. Putting young talent at risk.

I don't see how encouraging people to run out and shoot an indy documentary on a 5D - and this is exactly the result of your blog and other work - I see no warnings about DSLR use and networks - only to have the door slammed in your face by all non-fiction networks only due to your unfortunate camera choice "helps us all as filmmakers."

.

 

[Philip Bloom]

I'm sorry Phil, but I disagree. I'm all for someone releasing a $100 camera that shoots 1080p perfectly with low noise. I will be the first to pre-order and use it on a major job, IF it delivers on what it is supposed to do.

Misinformation does not help filmmakers, it is rather dangerous to them. A friend of mine shot a commercial on the 5D, and lost his shirt when half the takes had to be re-shot. Another friend wasted many days of a feature shoot, his first feature, using a 5D - as the film takes place in city streets and you can't have every shot be a shallow depth of field close-up. It almost ruined his career. I took them both out drinking. I took no pleasure in saying "I told you so". They were both influenced by the very hype the House shoot creates.

I don't think their real hardship is anything we should be embracing, and its' an insult to Red to say that they created false hype in the same way. They were always honest about limitations, from day 1, and still are.

It's nice to be positive with posts like yours and then everyone applauds you, but there are some real, negative facts that are also important to address, even though nobody wants to hear them, and even though someone like me gets s--t on for bringing them up.

Nobody is hiding issues with these cameras. Like any camera in the right hands they can do wonders. Just as RED in the wrong hands can also create a pile of shit! I just don't get the whole negative vibe from you Rob.

 

[Philip Bloom]

Amen Philip!

Quick question, I wanted to first thank you so much for educating DSLR users and proving that it is a viable production tool in the right hands. Are you planning on adopting the Scarlet and continuing to educate the masses? I for one learned a great deal from your DSLR blog entries and hope you do the same with the Scarlet. There are a ton of future Scarlet users that have never read this forum and will need to be taught and you are the perfect man for the job.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks. Without a doubt I will be buying a Scarlet. I am always excited by new tools coming out and will adopt them if they are right for me. There is much in the Scarlet that excites me.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

Misinformation does not help filmmakers, it is rather dangerous to them. A friend of mine shot a commercial on the 5D, and lost his shirt when half the takes had to be re-shot. Another friend wasted many days of a feature shoot, his first feature, using a 5D - as the film takes place in city streets and you can't have every shot be a shallow depth of field close-up. It almost ruined his career. I took them both out drinking. I took no pleasure in saying "I told you so". They were both influenced by the very hype the House shoot creates.

The thing is though, shouldn't they have informed themselves better? The information is out there, and is pretty easy to find...that or they should've tested it themselves. Being a professional means understanding the tools of your craft so well people pay you for it.

On the topic of misinformation, I would like to call you on one bit of it. The guys at Lucasfilm, I'm sure, said "Wow that's pretty cool for a $2500 camera" when they saw your 5D footage. I said that too, and still think it's true. However, I doubt they said "Let's shoot our next feature with this" or let's shoot our next anything with this, much like I also did not. I'm not saying you claim they did, but that's the impression gleaned, the internet myth spread.

Well they did do reshoots for Red Tails on one...that's a major film otherwise shot on an F35.

 

[Philip Bloom]

Misinformation does not help filmmakers, it is rather dangerous to them. A friend of mine shot a commercial on the 5D, and lost his shirt when half the takes had to be re-shot. Another friend wasted many days of a feature shoot, his first feature, using a 5D - as the film takes place in city streets and you can't have every shot be a shallow depth of field close-up. It almost ruined his career. I took them both out drinking. I took no pleasure in saying "I told you so". They were both influenced by the very hype the House shoot creates.

On the topic of misinformation, I would like to call you on one bit of it. The guys at Lucasfilm, I'm sure, said "Wow that's pretty cool for a $2500 camera" when they saw your 5D footage. I said that too, and still think it's true. However, I doubt they said "Let's shoot our next feature with this" or let's shoot our next anything with this, much like I also did not. I'm not saying you claim they did, but that's the impression gleaned, the internet myth spread.

Ok let's address this and let's be frank here as you seem to like that. Your friends obviously had no experience with this camera before embarking on a paid job. Foolish. They are tricky beasts to learn. Took me some time to feel totally confident with them. Totally different to any video camera I have ever shot with.

Secondly, I am shooting pick ups on the $2500 camera for Lucasfilm alongside the F35s on "Red Tails". Many of my shots will make the final cut. We never had any intentions of replacing the F35s, as was said we are evaluating...As said in my post then as I say now, we are all aware of the limitations. If you go into a project ignoring them then that's your mistake. You can read my blog and make whatever assumption you want from it but I never said anything like that. Find the quote, send it to me and I will eat humble pie. I am an advocate for new techniques, new challenges, new cameras. I am pretty certain I have never said to ANYONE who has emailed me, throw out your video camera you don't need it anymore, just use the DSLR. I am very cautious, have been and will continue to be with their current limitations. Chinese whispers are dangerous Rob. Don't listen to them.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Please continue the discussion at dvxuser (minus the all-too-frequent personal insults)